Indoor GG's Giant Greens

[Rev. Green Genes]

I'm getting impatient again.


the buds are not noticeably bigger every ten minutes.......



I had to bend [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG] to the side, I was trying to get a few more inches from the light before she stretches anymore. I ended up supercroping her main top. I tied it up, oh well. it was gonna have to happen anyway. She was out of space.

[HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG] is as beautiful as ever.

I removed another bucket full of leaf. That makes about two full buckets of leaves in two weeks carted out of there.

[HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG] seems to have gone into neutral gear. And I am worried she won't bulk up. It's hard to fight the urge to boost nutes.

I'm simply in AWE of these queens.

ps, those macros were a lower bud, not the top.

 

[FullDuplex]

Quick one and more later.....was wondering how the switch to 12/12 would effect flower development.

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

I would go back to 18/6 if I were sure it wouldn't have any negative effects on [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG]. But I didn't expect it would hinder [HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG] much, plenty of large buds have happened on 12/12 schedules. I'll be interested to learn what you were thinking.

 

[FullDuplex]

I would go back to 18/6 if I were sure it wouldn't have any negative effects on [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG]. But I didn't expect it would hinder [HASHTAG]#2[/HASHTAG] much, plenty of large buds have happened on 12/12 schedules. I'll be interested to learn what you were thinking.

So I mentioned in the past that I stress my males. One of the tests I do is drop the light cycle from 20/4 to18/6. Give them at least 2 weeks on the new light schedule and then Raise the light schedule back. exposing them back to a higher light schedule. Now I know that isn't as drastic as the 12/12 back to 18/6 but the change in increasing the light exposure is higher.

In the days of the Low Ryder and the early genetics of the autoflower raising the light schedule was a trigger for male stamen on female plants. Some breeders started testing this as a natural selfing method. It was a bad idea as it reflected an environmental stressor into the gene pool. When I test my males I stress them in this mentality to see if I can change the light cycle if I need to adjust for temp issues and watch what happens to the plant.

You noted the trauma or the primordial shift on the one that you forced to flower. If she was going to herm she would have then and there. that is the goal to the breeding. Ill share another tip too, males carry the traits that you want, I have yet to be proven otherwise in my own grows. If there is something I want ill search for the ideal male as much as I search for that mom that is as deep in color and resin that I want for the next generation. Seems that they pass on more of the ideal genetics that you want, so stressing the male has been my focus with a multi level test. The females go through their own gauntlet too.

So id be interested to see what would happen to the one that was in advanced flower if you kicked it back up. Id also be interested to see what happened to the one that was slower to flower. Wonder if it would hold? If it did hold then we would know if in fact the plant was in need of the kick.

well see what happens, youre doing a fantastic job with them, that is for sure, and I am here just sharing my input on them.

Now I have this as a question what is the resin production looking like. I can see that its on the sugar leaf, but are we getting out into the secondary's and then some main fans?

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

In the days of the Low Ryder and the early genetics of the autoflower raising the light schedule was a trigger for male stamen on female plants.

Thats no good. We don't want herms.

So id be interested to see what would happen to the one that was in advanced flower if you kicked it back up. Id also be interested to see what happened to the one that was slower to flower. Wonder if it would hold? If it did hold then we would know if in fact the plant was in need of the kick.

If it holds it was in need of a kick, but if it reverts to veg it carried photo genes, and if it herms it is just too much stress. Is that right? I would love to go back to 18, I may need to read through that again. Thanks you tons for sharing that depth of knowledge. I will be wrapping my head around that for a while. While I think about all that ( massive effort my man.... kudos.) let me drop some science on you about flowering mechanisms. If you want more let me know.

Day neutral plants (autoflowers) are vastly understudied, and no one knows what the complete flowering mechanism is. We know the bud meristem formations parts of it, but the triggers are still a mystery. Photo period plants on the other hand are well known mechanisms. Interesting that the actual circadian clock mechanism measures night time, not day time. It is controlled by light avoidant compounds and their relationship to activation of protein synthesis.

There is a protein in buds (LEAFY or LFY) that triggers leaf generation, and interacts with other chemicals to initiate flower meristem development. The genius of plants little chemical minds is that they use one useful substance to hinder or help other substances, creating negative feedback for DNA transcription or morphological shifts like flower initiation.

In long day plants CO protein is made in leaves, and it has a negative relationship with light, this causes a buildup during night and at a certain ratio as the nights get longer it 'releases' the mRNA that will start to build the new flower meristem. In short day plants it is the HD1 protein, cannabis is a short day plant. It starts it's shift at 12 hours, and more of the proteins for flower are produced as the night gets longer. It's frustrating not knowing what it is for autos..... So your experience in trying to figure it out is invaluable.That's in long and short day plants (photoperiods). I really want to know what it is in day neutral plants, it would allow us to edit autoflower into any plant.

Imagine the usefulness for world hunger if we could autoflower any plant?

That's pretty close anyway, it's a lot more complex than I can put in a paragraph. It's been a while since I studied it that closely and it gets confusing with all the negative feedback loops.

It was a bad idea

yep. But I see the benefit of selfing that way. I also remember reading that seeds from hermies are feminized at a high rate.

Now I have this as a question what is the resin production looking like. I can see that its on the sugar leaf, but are we getting out into the secondary's and then some main fans?

The sugr leaves are covered, the long petioled leaves on the tops are about 30-50% coverage, and nothing to speak of on the main fans off the nodes.

I am scared to go back to 18 now. It has transformed to full flower now, but there's still lots of leaf stuff around.

LDPs

1. CO protein accumulation in leaves during LD induces FT protein production
2. FT protein travels through phloem to shoot apical meristem

SDPs

1. HD1 protein (inhibitor) is not produces during SD. Hd3a protein is produced
2. Hd3a protein travels through phloem to shoot apical meristem

@Dr. Babnik and @Mossy


I would love to hear you weigh in on this one. I am sure you have seen some of this.

 

[FullDuplex]

Thats no good. We don't want herms.

No we dont

If it holds it was in need of a kick, but if it reverts to veg it carried photo genes, and if it herms it is just too much stress. Is that right? I would love to go back to 18, I may need to read through that again. Thanks you tons for sharing that depth of knowledge. I will be wrapping my head around that for a while. While I think about all that ( massive effort my man.... kudos.) let me drop some science on you about flowering mechanisms. If you want more let me know.

Pretty much right. If it holds then we know it carried the gene over and was just slow as fuck to flower, but she was stress as a teen well say. The thing though is I don't think it was That much stress to slow it that long. If it reverts then we know for a fact that it was one that wanted to carry the photo genes. This is why I stress that phenotype does not always reflect the genotype of the plant. The visual expression we see is only a small part of what is going on.

Day neutral plants (autoflowers) are vastly understudied, and no one knows what the complete flowering mechanism is. We know the bud meristem formations parts of it, but the triggers are still a mystery. Photo period plants on the other hand are well known mechanisms. Interesting that the actual circadian clock mechanism measures night time, not day time. It is controlled by light avoidant compounds and their relationship to activation of protein synthesis.

Yeah I have been chasing that rabbit for a few years now. Something that I do see is they respond the same way peppers do in containers. If the container is small a pepper plant will go to flower its also a trick that nurseries use to make the plant look more appealing to the un-trained eye. The whole "hey it has flowers already." Autoflowers respond the same. Root restrictions lead to a faster flower time. I think that there is something with the root system that has something to do with it. There is proof in what I mean in this grow right here in front of us. The seed that you are running are from parents that were selected in .5 gal pots and your lower branch structure has more mass than they did. A few of the test grows all showed larger plants than what I typically run all from seed produced with smaller plants due to pot restrictions.

It opens a whole new world of questions. Like if you want your garden plants, tomatoes and peppers for example, to be larger you remove the flowers forming and allow the plant to reach a larger potential. then once left alone they will take it from there and get larger.

Id really like to watch the root development change once the first preflowers immerge form the plant, see if there is some sort of shift there.

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

Okay then.... It's hard to see the light timer behind these 4 ft wide plants (reorganization is called for here), but I think it's up to 16/8 now. I'm watching for ball sacks like a hawk this week. I Tried to look at the trichs closer but I can't use the loupe I have very well, It has to basically be touching the bud to focus on them. They may be starting to cloud up. I'm gonna look closer today, I wouldn't mind harvesting, I'm on my last ounce of bud to smoke.

I am all of a sudden rich in nutes. I have all 4 full bottles of green planet, and a shiny new set of AN base nutes for the solo cup grow. And I picked up some hydroguard for when I get these crazy pH shift problems again. I'm almost done, I want to get some mammoth P and my tool belt will be complete.

Bigsmo recommended Emerald Harvest nutes. Apparently they are the engineers from AN that left in an internal dispute and took the formula with them. The base nutes are well priced, but the additives are still expensive.

Id really like to watch the root development change once the first preflowers immerge form the plant, see if there is some sort of shift there.

I so wish I had a laboratory with ovens and stuff. I occasionally work at the university, but the professors will not give up the equipment for even a short run of tests. I swear on whatever is holy though, should I get rich, I'll start Autoflower Labs and we will get to the bottom of this shit.

 

[FullDuplex]

Woah you wanna play eh? Little testing. I didn't mean for you to do that but if you are like me, you wanna know.

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

Woah you wanna play eh? Little testing. I didn't mean for you to do that but if you are like me, you wanna know.

that and I want to get back over 12 for the new solo cup seedling, an the next up to bat as well. I think she can take it, she's a beast.

I have already broken her a foot down from the main top, and bent three more away from the lights. She can take it! She's eating more nutes than anything I've ever seen. Here's her flower development pic for this morning.

 

[Waira]

daaaaamn! -- outstanding job on these beasties GG- ... and what an interesting pair they are,... I'm with FD, these look so strongly Sativa-like in their morphology, I'd say you have a couple retro-Thai dragon ladies! Ida lost the bet on these being AFL#5's all day,.... FD, so much for the Zulu spear pheno' here- .... GG that Bernie doll is killin' me! ... get some Jamaican gear on him and you're golden!
Interesting observations and comments guys,... I'm thinking about how the "Sativa" leaning side is playing into this, especially Thai, notorious for long seasons being an equatorial landrace in origin,... it seems fairly common for the more Sativa leaning crosses and pheno's to take longer, which lends itself well to DWC monster production,... Remember Grey Bears insane Purple Amnesia and Shiznit? Only in hydro, right? I still puzzle as to how anybody can get them (auto's) this large, veg' that long, even with fast growth rates,... while another growing the same strain in say, soil, would be smoking theirs while watching GB's girls build massive bud harvests,... Going to FD's ideas about root space, veg' time and bloom initiation, makes you wonder,... And yes, then there's the generational aspect to this, particularly with the slower blooming one,... FD knows way more about this than I,... For sure, in Sick Bay I see a fair number of auto's in their 5-6th week that finally triggered, or some that needed the light drop to get it going,... I'm with you GG, I'd love to see more science behind the day neutral mechanisms and expressions,... some breeders have nice pieces to the puzzle,... Sweet Seeds Tommy said their auto's are down to single digit % rudi' genes,.. I asked about how at F3/F4 this is possible, but not sure I understood the answer,... they were counting generations from a different starting point? Female Seeds Gennaro said they have been tinkering with rudi'/auto plants for a long time, but not to make auto's per se, they were looking to shorten the seasons and make more tolerant plants for growing in Norther climates,...
Light hours creeping up,..! Is the bloom speed holding? Have you started a high P feed kick yet? ... bud set look good, but very "sativa", more loose, kinda sparse,... You know what old school Thai landrace bud looks like, it's hardly what we call "buds"! More like a wispy clump of bracts on strands... Makes me very curious to see how they fill out!

good stuff GG ---