Mephisto Genetics White Crack + Sour Livers SIP LOS Grow

[slowandeasy]

Not doubting your experience for a second! I just wanna learn. Like I said, all your opinions matter to me.

I understand about roots needing horizontal space. What I don’t understand is, does it really need a horizontal space larger than the solo cup for its first 10 days or so? If this is the case, wouldn’t all seedling containers be a foot wide? How different is this from someone transplanting a seedling from a 500ml container? With the cup, I get to maintain moisture easier and it wicks into the soil, making overwatering unlikely. It also directs the roots towards the soil below where there is more moisture. The cup dries out faster than soil under it, driving roots downwards and then expands in all directions. Isn’t that what we want? Sounds exactly like what you mentioned too? So why is it bad again?

Why wouldn’t the top part of cup have the same root system as a transplanted seedling? Before transplant, the seedling has the exact amount of room as the one buried. In fact, there is risk of transplanting too late but when you bury it, there isnt.

In hydro, a similar process with net pots but actually makes the plant stronger? With cups showing a bit from soil, I can even see exactly how moist it is.

Buring a solo cup takes up the top few inches of a pot, and the roots are then forced out the bottom only. You are trapping a large portion of top roots from growing out ward upon transplant. You are also watering backwards. Watering by the stem is counter productive. You are putting a barrier between the outside of your pot, where you should actually be watering. The outer edge of the pot should be more moist than near the stem when top watering. Forcing the roots to reach for the outer edges of the pot, horizontally. You are forcing the roots vertically only vs horizontally and verically when you water the cup first.

If you want to start a plant directly in the final pot it is easy, and the best for Autos if possible to do it. You just make a hole the size of your Solo cup, fill that wiith starter soil and plant directly. Water around the outside of the pot, and just keep the starter soil slightly moist. But you have to keep the final pot warmer to have optimal results. If your environment is only 75f, dont start directly. Shoot for 80-85f. Here is a goid way to think of it if you are top watering a trsnsplanted seedling. Dont water the roots diirectly, water away from them. When you pour water down thst cup, you are watering the roots directly. This gives them little motivation to grow fast and seek moisture...because you soaked them directly. Ideally we want the roots to grow horizontally and vertically at about the same rate. So if you top water around the outer edge, the roots grow both Horizontslly and vertically...and sre not soaking the roots directly during the transplant phase. Use your medium like a sponge, wicking from outside in. Sip Containers work really well because it is even moisture and not direct contact with the seedlings root system. Good luck, slow

 

[bakEQuatorial]

Buring a solo cup takes up the top few inches of a pot, and the roots are then forced out the bottom only. You are trapping a large portion of top roots from growing out ward upon transplant. You are also watering backwards. Watering by the stem is counter productive. You are putting a barrier between the outside of your pot, where you should actually be watering. The outer edge of the pot should be more moist than near the stem when top watering. Forcing the roots to reach for the outer edges of the pot, horizontally. You are forcing the roots vertically vs horizontally when you water the cup first.

If you want to start a plant directly in the final pot it is easy, and the best for Autos if possible to do it. You just make a hole the size of your Solo cup, fill that wiith starter soil and plant directly. Water around the outside of the pot, and just keep the starter soil slightly moist. But you have to keep the final pot warmer to have optimal results. If your environment is only 75f, dont start directly. Shoot for 80-85f. Good luckx slow

I originally did what you suggested. It’s still difficult for me to accept that the few inches actually matters. Even with burying the cup, I still see roots very close to the top inch soil once they mature.

I also find it difficult to accept that watering the cup is backwards. Every time you water the cup, it drips into the soil, making the soil wetter than soil in the cup. This makes the roots work towards the soil below. This is still what we want right? Forcing them just a couple inches vertically can’t be that bad? Hydro has all the top roots in a net pot! It forces roots to go down first, then spreads all over in reservoir. How is this any different?

Again, if this is the case, wouldn’t all small containers be wide as hell?

It’s actually no biggie at all whether I use the cup or not. Either way is fine and won’t cause any inconvenience. Just feel that, with the cup, I get to sorta train the roots a little for first 10 days to make sure it’s really reaching downwards. Not just staying at the surface.

I have tried both with and without cup like you suggested but really do not see any difference. Only reason I keep picking your brain is to gain more knowledge and perhaps decide once and for all, which method works best and why? I’m pretty much on the fence.

Just in case, probably gonna lose the cup next round lol

 

[slowandeasy]

I originally did what you suggested. It’s still difficult for me to accept that the few inches actually matters. Even with burying the cup, I still see roots very close to the top inch soil once they mature.

I also find it difficult to accept that watering the cup is backwards. Every time you water the cup, it drips into the soil, making the soil wetter than soil in the cup. This makes the roots work towards the soil below. This is still what we want right? Forcing them just a couple inches vertically can’t be that bad? Hydro has all the top roots in a net pot! It forces roots to go down first, then spreads all over in reservoir. How is this any different?

Again, if this is the case, wouldn’t all small containers be wide as hell?

It’s actually no biggie at all whether I use the cup or not. Either way is fine and won’t cause any inconvenience. Just feel that, with the cup, I get to sorta train the roots a little for first 10 days to make sure it’s really reaching downwards. Not just staying at the surface.

I have tried both with and without cup like you suggested but really do not see any difference. Only reason I keep picking your brain is to gain more knowledge and perhaps decide once and for all, which method works best and why? I’m pretty much on the fence.

Just in case, probably gonna lose the cup next round lol

Okx think whatever you want. You are not understanding the concept of wicking. You are watering directly on the roots, that is counter productive when transplanting. You want to avoid directly watering your roots. You want to have the medium wick the water from the outside in. Never soaking the cup itself ever. Only keeping that area slightly moist. You are drenching it directly, slowing the root growth down. I can guarantee 2 clones done with a Solo Cup and without will have different root structures and the one in the cup will be smaller, yield less, and the main stalk will be almost half of the size of the transplanted one at harvest. Just curious how many times you haave tried both ways and which strains. AUTOS vary so much, that 2 seeds of the same strain are rearely the same size. If you have anybphoto strains twke clones and use clear cups. When they get roots water them differently. Water 1 around the stem. Water 1 around the outside, and botom water 1. See how the root systems grow. Get back to me after and you will better understand. And FWIW, when you transplant aseedling and use a net pot in DWC, the Hydoton and net pot are for stability only. You dont need them. I used to grow Mediumless DWC 20 years ago, with only a 5 gal Bucket
, lid and a poole noodle for support. Same concept, you have the roots seek the moisture until they reach the water. Good luck, slow

 

[bakEQuatorial]

Okx think whatever you want. You are not understanding the concept of wicking. You are watering directly on the roots, that is counter productive when transplanting. You want to avoid directly watering your roots. You want to have the medium wick the water from the outside in. Never soaking the cup itself ever. Only keeping that area slightly moist. You are drenching it directly, slowing the root growth down. I can guarantee 2 clones done with a Solo Cup and without will have different root structures and the one in the cup will be smaller, yield less, and the main stalk will be almost half of the size of the transplanted one at harvest. Just curious how many times you haave tried both ways and which strains. AUTOS vary so much, that 2 seeds of the same strain are rearely the same size. If you have anybphoto strains twke clones and use clear cups. When they get roots water them differently. Water 1 around the stem. Water 1 around the outside, and botom water 1. See how the root systems grow. Get back to me after and you will better understand. And FWIW, when you transplant aseedling and use a net pot in DWC, the Hydoton and net pot are for stability only. You dont need them. I used to grow Mediumless DWC 20 years ago, with only a 5 gal Bucket
, lid and a poole noodle for support. Same concept, you have the roots seek the moisture until they reach the water. Good luck, slow

You are right! I’m not. Thank you.

 

[MrOldBoy]

With seedlings environment is super important as well as a nice developed root system ..... I could start direct into my planter but I find it hard to keep everything dialed in a tent that requires 85 degrees and 75% humidity so I elect to start inside a little humidity dome under a T5 6500k light - seedlings thrive under the light / temp / humidity I’m able to control .....

If I had a large basement and a couple different tent setups I would have a tent for just starts and then transfer to a second tent for the grow but I don’t have that kind of setup ...... I need to start in separate location verses growing ....

Knowing I need to start and transplant I wanted the best start pot available so I went with the RootMaker start pot - I have used these for tomatoes and other plants for years before ever growing here on AFN - and tomatoes plants while you can direct plant outdoors it is most advisable to start tomatoes indoors .... And RootMaker start pots make a wonderful root system for my tomatoes so why not for AFN grow ..... I heard you couldn’t or it wasn’t advisable to transplant autos so I was hesitant but went ahead and did anyways - had success doing for tomatoes and others so I did it and had success so i continue with this controversial method of starting AFN type plants ......

Next issue is transplant shock, you don’t want to shock the poor plant so one needs to carefully remove the seedling and transplant - One thing I like to do before plant is removed from pot is to take the pot and form into the soil making a receiving hole for the new seedling before it ever comes out of its pot - then slip plant out of container or cut sides of container so as to gently slide out and then slide into the newly made hole and gently press down and around, no backfill required, simple and effective - transplanted hundreds of plants and flowers over the years using this method verses digging hole, putting seedling in and backfilling hole - when you pre-make the hole there is no backfill and no shock at all to the plant and the rootmaker starting pots make beautiful roots - what’s not to like?

There are plenty of other means and methods and for sure most work - so if what you are doing works, keep doing it - If not try something else - I am thinking about end results, not what Road we took to get there!

 

[Vicent Van Grow]

Well that transplant discussion was an excellent read guys, I think many people will learn a lot from reading it. Experimenting with transplanting is something I am constantly doing so I thought I would chuck my 2 cents in. In regard coco and similar mediums is if you are experienced and know what you are doing and have the space, always, always start in your main pot as per the advice given by slow, if you are new and have worries then I suggest starting in a small pot with your pre fertilised medium of choice, this will give you the best chance of a successful grow in my experience and is much more forgiving. As long as I pot the girls up around day 14 or earlier and don't do anything stupid while transplanting (which sometimes can't be avoided) they usually kick on with minimal fuss, if I go beyond 18 days before transplanting there is a noticeable difference and the plants never bush out as much. With me being perpetual it really does improve my output being able to start some new girls while the others are finishing off in the same space, recently purchased something similar to the rootmakers OB is using to try and improve the transplants even more and switched my starting soil from the bio bizz all mix to starter mix to see if that further helps root development tho I found no problems using the all mix.

This thread is the most insightful thread I think I have been part of since I joined, keep it going guys i'm already at $200 worth a equipment purchased that I can't even use for about another 8 weeks , I mentioned LOS to the Mrs and when she heard the word worms you guy should have seen her face

 

[Vicent Van Grow]

With seedlings environment is super important as well as a nice developed root system ..... I could start direct into my planter but I find it hard to keep everything dialed in a tent that requires 85 degrees and 75% humidity so I elect to start inside a little humidity dome under a T5 6500k light - seedlings thrive under the light / temp / humidity I’m able to control .....

If I had a large basement and a couple different tent setups I would have a tent for just starts and then transfer to a second tent for the grow but I don’t have that kind of setup ...... I need to start in separate location verses growing ....

Knowing I need to start and transplant I wanted the best start pot available so I went with the RootMaker start pot - I have used these for tomatoes and other plants for years before ever growing here on AFN - and tomatoes plants while you can direct plant outdoors it is most advisable to start tomatoes indoors .... And RootMaker start pots make a wonderful root system for my tomatoes so why not for AFN grow ..... I heard you couldn’t or it wasn’t advisable to transplant autos so I was hesitant but went ahead and did anyways - had success doing for tomatoes and others so I did it and had success so i continue with this controversial method of starting AFN type plants ......

Next issue is transplant shock, you don’t want to shock the poor plant so one needs to carefully remove the seedling and transplant - One thing I like to do before plant is removed from pot is to take the pot and form into the soil making a receiving hole for the new seedling before it ever comes out of its pot - then slip plant out of container or cut sides of container so as to gently slide out and then slide into the newly made hole and gently press down and around, no backfill required, simple and effective - transplanted hundreds of plants and flowers over the years using this method verses digging hole, putting seedling in and backfilling hole - when you pre-make the hole there is no backfill and no shock at all to the plant and the rootmaker starting pots make beautiful roots - what’s not to like?

There are plenty of other means and methods and for sure most work - so if what you are doing works, keep doing it - If not try something else - I am thinking about end results, not what Road we took to get there!

View attachment 1149625

Similar situation here OB would have to run 2 600w hps just for seedlings if I wanted the climate right where it should be.
I have a question regarding the transplanting, is there a preferred moisture level to transplant at?
It's something I have only tested slightly and transplanting when the medium was more on the dry side always seems to give me better results.

 

[MrOldBoy]

Similar situation here OB would have to run 2 600w hps just for seedlings if I wanted the climate right where it should be.
I have a question regarding the transplanting, is there a preferred moisture level to transplant at?
It's something I have only tested slightly and transplanting when the medium was more on the dry side always seems to give me better results.

In an EarthBox grow I don’t worry about the moisture level of the soil, nor do I water after I transplant, maybe mist around the soil before transplant so as to keep my soil held in place but no water after transplant, EarthBox is already moist and ready to go .....

The transplant soil is also already moist - probably watered day before so soil is sill moist and wouldn’t need water if not transplanted so I know she will go another day without any water - made mistake on first EarthBox grow of watering after transplant - oops ....

Not sure I answered the question but hope it helps ....

Take a look at pic, note soil is moist when she comes out of her baby pot!

 

[MrOldBoy]

Well that transplant discussion was an excellent read guys, I think many people will learn a lot from reading it. Experimenting with transplanting is something I am constantly doing so I thought I would chuck my 2 cents in. In regard coco and similar mediums is if you are experienced and know what you are doing and have the space, always, always start in your main pot as per the advice given by slow, if you are new and have worries then I suggest starting in a small pot with your pre fertilised medium of choice, this will give you the best chance of a successful grow in my experience and is much more forgiving. As long as I pot the girls up around day 14 or earlier and don't do anything stupid while transplanting (which sometimes can't be avoided) they usually kick on with minimal fuss, if I go beyond 18 days before transplanting there is a noticeable difference and the plants never bush out as much. With me being perpetual it really does improve my output being able to start some new girls while the others are finishing off in the same space, recently purchased something similar to the rootmakers OB is using to try and improve the transplants even more and switched my starting soil from the bio bizz all mix to starter mix to see if that further helps root development tho I found no problems using the all mix.

This thread is the most insightful thread I think I have been part of since I joined, keep it going guys i'm already at $200 worth a equipment purchased that I can't even use for about another 8 weeks , I mentioned LOS to the Mrs and when she heard the word worms you guy should have seen her face

Van Grow - I know my knowledge base has been heightened by AFN for sure ......


Since you are an adventurous grower, take a look at this little tidbit of info - might trigger some new thoughts on your starts / root

How To Turn a Regular Pot into a RootMaker Pot

https://rootmaker.com/sites/default/files/pdf/PotLickerE.pdf

Starter soil helps but like you said no issues with the mix either - I’ve used all kinds of different soil mixes for my outdoor garden and really haven’t ever found a favorite start soil .....

Wish I coulda of seen the look on her face - She must of been like “Say What”

I’ll take my LOS and mix in peat moss or maybe a little coco and use that with success or just Organic Jiffy Mix works well too or mix LOS and Jiffy works ok along with a smidge of compost .... Here is a girl in that type of mix, which is evidenced by the companion tomato starts - Compost is where tomato seeds came from - worms don’t eat tomato seeds and they ended up sprouting but have since cut at base.

Hey @slowandeasy - why ya think, little more stretch - dang thing has a weak stem for sure but should strengthen as she grows - This Gal is for a buddy of mine btw - a non grower who I’m setting up with a single cob and a Junior

 

[Vicent Van Grow]

In an EarthBox grow I don’t worry about the moisture level of the soil, nor do I water after I transplant, maybe mist around the soil before transplant so as to keep my soil held in place but no water after transplant, EarthBox is already moist and ready to go .....

The transplant soil is also already moist - probably watered day before so soil is sill moist and wouldn’t need water if not transplanted so I know she will go another day without any water - made mistake on first EarthBox grow of watering after transplant - oops ....

Not sure I answered the question but hope it helps ....

Take a look at pic, note soil is moist when she comes out of her baby pot!

View attachment 1149638

You definitely answered the question and gave me a few other things to think about also, much appreciated as always OB.
The advise you gave regarding moistening my medium before potting my beans and not after definitely seemed to help so I will be moistening the final pot medium before I transplant too.

Those roots look great hopefully once I make a few changes to those pots I imported I will be able to replicate similar results, I never noticed that the rootmakers only have a few air holes on each section whereas the ones I have are perforated all the way round I think if I plug or tape over most then it will make it much easier to transplant without having to damage the pots, fingers crossed anyway.