Indoor Tobe's test and breeding ground

[tobe]

So this breeding chart makes sense to you? Disregard the Black Widow mentioned as I made this graph to ask a question at Mr.Nice forum, which isn't appreciated if you are not one of the "in" crew. Long story short, got banned
View attachment 1664300

Hey Bob's Auto's
Yes that make sense to me but one tree is enough if there is not much space available to make stable autoflower version of a photoperiod. You can see the backcrosses in the chart

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Hey Bob's Auto's
Yes that make sense to me but one tree is enough if there is not much space available to make stable autoflower version of a photoperiod. You can see the backcrosses in the chart

Correct, but the secret 'sauce' should be in the male. At least that's what I've heard and read about on several occasions. But finding the right male would need loads of test crosses to a sublime female. And I've got an idea about that...
Don't know if you followed my breeding thread, but on the second to last grow I used 'ethephon' to see what would happen with the flowers. I treated all the female plants, should have treated only half and then observe the difference, but alas.
The result was that the plants stopped for an entire week. Had a hell of a time to keep them alive, but they didn't stretch that much and produced a massive amount of flowers. The other thing about 'ethephon' is that it's the opposite of STS or CS and will turn a male into a female expression. Remember Dutch Master Reverse? It was sold during the turn of the Century to make sure you wouldn't get any stray nanners in your grow. It's a PGR and frowned upon now, but to see what a male has to offer, I think a great tool to use in breeding...Normally a male doesn't produce much Capitate-Stalked trichomes, but instead make's more Bulbous trichomes & Capitate-Sessile trichomes. Both do produce cannabinoids, but it's the massive Capitate-Stalked trichomes we are after. Introducing the ethephon will allow the male plant to express itself like if it was a female. Make-up and all...

Now to answer why I'm then using both male and female, is because at the end of both lines I'll end up with two auto White Widow lines which I can cross out to regain hybrid vigor. Remember, after a couple of selections a line's genotype has changed so much it can be called a new cultivar. The phenotype's we select for can be the same, but genotypical we're talking about two different cultivars.
Putting these two together will assure F1 offspring with the same phenotypical expressions as the parents and have hybrid vigor. Exactly what a new grower needs. Not much variation and super healthy plants.

So nice to finally talk breeding with someone bro!! Thank you for this

 

[ShuShu]

Maybe read the post below before you decide. And then use the auction site if you do dicide on buying seeds there. It'll save you some money for sure. You do have to be patient as I had to wait 6 weeks on my seeds...But if you have time and plan things accordingly not a reason not to buy of course.



I know all three origin stories. The problem is, they all claim they have the original.
White Widow was created at GHS, that's a fact. Then Scott (Shantibaba/Waterboy, depends on who you ask ) got into a fit with Arjan and left GHS, claiming he took the parents with him. Then there is Ingemar (De Sjamaan), who also worked for/with Arjan. He found the seeds that made White Widow and suppose he gave the plant and copyright to Arjan too use. He also gave several cuts too Henk at Dutch Passion.

So far the history...Now in the meantime all three seedhouses who until the mid 90's were legally producing seed all got raided by the police. Ingemar was the only one with a goverment certificate to grow outside for medical purposes. If the White Widow was in it's fields it surely got air pollinated by neighboring plants, remember...pollen can travel for miles and miles and still be good to go.
Scott was residing in Switzerland at that time and evaded those busts, but he got so eager selling legal weed across the border into Italy (as potpoury, I'm not joking!!), they fucked it up for all the legitimate growers in the region and so all of them got raided as most of 'm only got a license to grow CBD. He even talked about it in one of the few interviews he gave (search YouTube). He admitted lossing his 'special male' and the White Widow mother. And this happened at least two times. So he had to start from seeds at least two times. Then there is the discussion on his own forum where he explains Black Widow is backcrossed to one of the parents and then sibbling mated. In fact creating a totally different cultivar or at the very least a different selection based upon phenotype.
Henk's methods were a bit more like in the old days. He didn't put his eggs in the same basket and spread out his grows. But who knows which got raided, I couldn't find more info on it.

See how complicated this whole story gets and it changes depending on who you ask. That's why I don't care about the politics. I only want to find my White Widow, the Widow I smoked...Breda/Bergen-op-Zoom region and two years ago in Catweazle. So I know it's still out there and I'm willing to go far to find it

Thanks for the insight Bob. I never really knew the story behind the White Widow. Just trying to help those find reg seeds of something similar

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Thanks for the insight Bob. I never really knew the story behind the White Widow. Just trying to help those find reg seeds of something similar

No problem bro. It's only because I did some in depth research online I gathered the above information. If I only had 50€ to spend on White Widow I'd probably go to Dutch Passion. I know, I'm bias to Dutch Passion for what they did for me and loads more people here on AFN and they deserve our purchases. I've only grew one cultivar which wasn't up to spec and that was probably my own fault or a dud that did make it. Everything else from Dutch Passion is just pure fire and easy to grow

 

[ShuShu]

No problem bro. It's only because I did some in depth research online I gathered the above information. If I only had 50€ to spend on White Widow I'd probably go to Dutch Passion. I know, I'm bias to Dutch Passion for what they did for me and loads more people here on AFN and they deserve our purchases. I've only grew one cultivar which wasn't up to spec and that was probably my own fault or a dud that did make it. Everything else from Dutch Passion is just pure fire and easy to grow

Nice, I thought Dutch Passion only made Fem. Might have to snag a pack down the road.
Thanks

 

[BII]

So the goal is to make an auto version with effects, potency, etc. ideally the same as you (somehow?) remember from decades ago. I presume this has been the same goal of essentially every company (and individual) that's ever developed an auto version.

Why bother to repeat what surely has been attempted, maybe accomplished, commercially many times over recent decades? It could be much more productive to simply grow out and yourself test some, most or all of the commercial auto versions that are out there, or at least the ones citing using classic/legacy seeds for breeding or otherwise trying to capture classic/legacy characteristics. And if none meet your expectations, at least you could select prime breeding stock.

Those seed companies in business decades ago, such as Dutch Passion. Royal Queen, Sweet(?), etc., and selling White Widow as photos for decades surely have a variety of White Widow and other genuine classic/legacy strains in their seed/germplasm collections. But these companies aren't into sharing their genetic treasures, particularly with individuals. [There might a lot more sharing if there were adequate plant strain patent protection, which is lacking in the US and other major markets].

 

[BCBudlady]

@Bob's Auto's , DP is the tops for White Widow and half of a favorite cross I’ve been growing for years. Never grown a single disappointing plant from them, but that house is not known for speedy autos. Many folks don’t mind 90-100 day behemoths and welcome the yield for time spent. Lately, my choices skew more toward speedier plants, or a couple to stagger the harvest.
@tobe ’s Orange Assault showed sex at 18 ish days…big smile and Berry Assault finished in the 70’s.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

So the goal is to make an auto version with effects, potency, etc. ideally the same as you (somehow?) remember from decades ago. I presume this has been the same goal of essentially every company (and individual) that's ever developed an auto version.

Why bother to repeat what surely has been attempted, maybe accomplished, commercially many times over recent decades? It could be much more productive to simply grow out and yourself test some, most or all of the commercial auto versions that are out there, or at least the ones citing using classic/legacy seeds for breeding or otherwise trying to capture classic/legacy characteristics. And if none meet your expectations, at least you could select prime breeding stock.

Those seed companies in business decades ago, such as Dutch Passion. Royal Queen, Sweet(?), etc., and selling White Widow as photos for decades surely have a variety of White Widow and other genuine classic/legacy strains in their seed/germplasm collections. But these companies aren't into sharing their genetic treasures, particularly with individuals. [There might a lot more sharing if there were adequate plant strain patent protection, which is lacking in the US and other major markets].

@Bob's Auto's , DP is the tops for White Widow and half of a favorite cross I’ve been growing for years. Never grown a single disappointing plant from them, but that house is not known for speedy autos. Many folks don’t mind 90-100 day behemoths and welcome the yield for time spent. Lately, my choices skew more toward speedier plants, or a couple to stagger the harvest.
@tobe ’s Orange Assault showed sex at 18 ish days…big smile and Berry Assault finished in the 70’s.

You are preaching to the choir my friends. All you have said is completely true and I've grown many a cultivar from Dutch Passion including the Auto White Widow, Auto Night Queen and many more. Both stellar breeds, but the Widow didn't have the taste of old. None of the auto versions of WW I tried have that...With Dutch Passion's version coming closest. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing...I'm just looking for that specific taste and not to recent ago (two years) when I was in the Netherlands I ordered myself a baggie of White Widow in a coffeeshop and on the first toke, it took me right back to these old days so I know it still exists. Probably not in auto form as pro growers in Holland laugh at the sight of an auto...
I've had several talks with Antonio from Dutch Passion about the subject and what came out of that was that I needed to go on a photo search for myself. Even if I can't transfer that taste of old into an auto form I will have the selected parents so I won't ever run out of clones...Most likely the "taste of old" will disappear as will all things picked up and I will make new memories and look back at this experience when I'm old and grey...wait...Older and greyer

 

[tobe]

Correct, but the secret 'sauce' should be in the male. At least that's what I've heard and read about on several occasions. But finding the right male would need loads of test crosses to a sublime female. And I've got an idea about that...
Don't know if you followed my breeding thread, but on the second to last grow I used 'ethephon' to see what would happen with the flowers. I treated all the female plants, should have treated only half and then observe the difference, but alas.
The result was that the plants stopped for an entire week. Had a hell of a time to keep them alive, but they didn't stretch that much and produced a massive amount of flowers. The other thing about 'ethephon' is that it's the opposite of STS or CS and will turn a male into a female expression. Remember Dutch Master Reverse? It was sold during the turn of the Century to make sure you wouldn't get any stray nanners in your grow. It's a PGR and frowned upon now, but to see what a male has to offer, I think a great tool to use in breeding...Normally a male doesn't produce much Capitate-Stalked trichomes, but instead make's more Bulbous trichomes & Capitate-Sessile trichomes. Both do produce cannabinoids, but it's the massive Capitate-Stalked trichomes we are after. Introducing the ethephon will allow the male plant to express itself like if it was a female. Make-up and all...

Now to answer why I'm then using both male and female, is because at the end of both lines I'll end up with two auto White Widow lines which I can cross out to regain hybrid vigor. Remember, after a couple of selections a line's genotype has changed so much it can be called a new cultivar. The phenotype's we select for can be the same, but genotypical we're talking about two different cultivars.
Putting these two together will assure F1 offspring with the same phenotypical expressions as the parents and have hybrid vigor. Exactly what a new grower needs. Not much variation and super healthy plants.

So nice to finally talk breeding with someone bro!! Thank you for this

Hey @Bob's Auto's
Selecting the best male is the best challenge to me and makes breeding more interesting.
I smoke the male flowers to test potency and taste. I only do it in the morning as my first smoke in a small pipe. I do it with every male and over the time I got a feeling what is a potent male. The next criteria is the structure of the male flowers and the structure of grow.

To every plant I use , I make notes in my breeding book to document all my steps. That's make it easier to control my observation and what the offspring gives.

 

[tobe]

Thanks for the insight Bob. I never really knew the story behind the White Widow. Just trying to help those find reg seeds of something similar

Hey bro
Who cares about stories , when I look back to my other crosses it's important to grow the start genetic first and test them from different sources to find the one who is the perfect parent.