Indoor Tobe's test and breeding ground

[Bob's Auto's]

I listened to a podcast at some point over the last week and they mentioned that there is no original White Widow. It was passed around a group of people in Europe and they all came up with their own versions.

You are right that there are so many variations on the White Widow. I really don't care which one it actually is. What I'm after is te version I smoked in the late 90's in the Breda/Bergen-op-Zoom region. I've been reading on a couple of Dutch fora and am about to member up with one of them, so I can ask some questions.
For a moment I was thinking about doing a search for some clones, but sadly and probably normal as it's illegal, the growshop I called said they haven't got clones. So, either I'd have to plan a day riding through the south of Holland going from growshop to growshop, or make a trip to the Gelderland region and try to get an audience with the owner of Catweazle. He's got the bud I'm after, so one and one is two... That would be the easy way.

I don't think you'll go wrong with the Dutch Passion version. It's more than likely what gets grown and supplied to the coffeeshops in Holland.

You are so right! Dutch Passion is one of the main seed sellers in Europe. Even Arjan doesn't sell any regular seed anymore, which could indicate they can't make regulars anymore. But on the other hand he is very commercial person and will do anything to make a buck. So it could also be a tactic to keep people buying seed from him, just like the majority of auto breeders as a fact. Don't know many that sell regular, but they are there!!

I may have a couple spare to send if you like?

Oh yes please!!! We'll continue this part of the conversation via pm brother ♥

 

[Qbgrower]

You are right that there are so many variations on the White Widow. I really don't care which one it actually is. What I'm after is te version I smoked in the late 90's in the Breda/Bergen-op-Zoom region. I've been reading on a couple of Dutch fora and am about to member up with one of them, so I can ask some questions.
For a moment I was thinking about doing a search for some clones, but sadly and probably normal as it's illegal, the growshop I called said they haven't got clones. So, either I'd have to plan a day riding through the south of Holland going from growshop to growshop, or make a trip to the Gelderland region and try to get an audience with the owner of Catweazle. He's got the bud I'm after, so one and one is two... That would be the easy way.


You are so right! Dutch Passion is one of the main seed sellers in Europe. Even Arjan doesn't sell any regular seed anymore, which could indicate they can't make regulars anymore. But on the other hand he is very commercial person and will do anything to make a buck. So it could also be a tactic to keep people buying seed from him, just like the majority of auto breeders as a fact. Don't know many that sell regular, but they are there!!


Oh yes please!!! We'll continue this part of the conversation via pm brother ♥

How about asking at one of the WIllie Wortels in Haarlem? I knew Nol a little and he was always very generous. I know he passed away but I wonder if the people who are still there are as generous?

Funny you mention the reg market. In that podcast I posted above he mentions that regs are less than 3% of the sales for Dutch Passion. So you can kind of understand the reasoning by Arjan. But you'd still expect at least a few regs.

Hit me up in PM and we can sort something out.

Qb

 

[Bob's Auto's]

How about asking at one of the WIllie Wortels in Haarlem? I knew Nol a little and he was always very generous. I know he passed away but I wonder if the people who are still there are as generous?

Funny you mention the reg market. In that podcast I posted above he mentions that regs are less than 3% of the sales for Dutch Passion. So you can kind of understand the reasoning by Arjan. But you'd still expect at least a few regs.

Hit me up in PM and we can sort something out.

Qb

Done!!!

 

[tobe]

Wow, my friend, your passion for Orange Assault is legendary! I hope you'll find the same love for our strains. Your meticulous approach to breeding, saving pollen, clones, and selecting top plants truly shows your dedication and responsibility You're a true breeding enthusiast! Thanks for sharing here☀your hard work sets a great example for others!

As for the Mighty Mite, it's an old Canadian strain from the 80s-90s, known for its very early and fast flowering. I grew some

Hi my friend
Thanks for the kind words.
To the Mighty Mite I got some seeds from a repro they are split in two lines one finish end of August the other end of September. The first one autoflower but isn't tested under 24/0 light. I think about to test this line to see if it's a true autoflower. Than I want to use them for a new autoflower line. The plan is to have a second autoflower without Lowryder genetic in it and cross them to the Orange Assault. I got the hope to have a very strong hybrid and I want to study the effect if this two different auto genetic. I get some of the pure sativa from Papua New Guinea that autoflower too. This three different auto genes makes it possible to breed powerful autos but need much time to know the genetic exactly.

 

[tobe]

I have a couple of questions for the doctor if I may..Might have to split in into another thread or continue in my breeding thread as I don't wanna foul Tobe's one.

As you might know already I'm about to embark in a multi year project.
First I want to find the White Widow I smoked when I was younger. It still exists as I smoked some a couple of years ago and it took me back thirty years in the past. For this I've sourced regular photo seeds from the three sources that claim to have the 'real' deal. Now, I'm not into politics and want to do this search blind. ie, As soon as the seeds germinate and transferred into small P9 pots I won't know which is which. My missus will keep a note on what's what, but since she doesn't smoke or has any affinity with my mistress, go figure , I can't be influenced by her.
The males from the original batch will get a treatment of Ethephon to turn them female, which is my guess, would make things easier to find a couple of special trannies. Of course before the treatment I will take clones to keep the original chemotype available.
After this rigorous selection I hope to keep three ladies and three gents which will be crossed to one another and labeled. These seeds will have to be grown out and tested. Just to find the right male. (hint for any @Cultivators by then)

Until this part everything is very straight forward and has nothing to do with growing auto's.
But now come the questions...What cultivar should I use as the auto parents. Should I go for a proven auto cultivar of recent years, with the risk of getting so much variance in the resulting F2 after two breeding sessions to get the recessive auto gene to apear again? I've got a great specimen which is already great on it's own.
Or should I go with one of the more well known auto variants of the White Widow, @Antonio_DutchPassion Dutch Passion's come's to mind. Or should I go with a cultivar like Lowryder, which lies on the foundation of most auto's? This would be taking a step back in my opinion as potency wasn't all that great back then, but on the other side the genetics inside that cultivar are the most pure to begin with. This is the same reason I went looking for the original breeder of White Widow and tumbled into the rabit hole of lies and deceit.
I want to finally end up with a White Widow in auto format, stable and with as less variance a possible. For me of course, but also to share with friends who never grew up with that fantastic cultivar.

What's your thoughts on this subject? And I apologize in advance if I offended you by calling Lowryder a low potency cultivar, I've never smoked it so I can't say and am going on what I've gathered on the interweb.


Regards,

Bob

Hey @Bob's Auto's
No problem hijacking my thread. To the White widow, the original are from Greenhouse seeds. Arijan take a manga Rosa from Brazil and crosses it with a other strain as I know right. I know growers from Brazil who knows exactly were the start genetic comes from. I will ask them at the weekend than I got the time to chat with my friend.
I ordered some regular seeds from RQS they got the seeds from Arijan and they are legit but I will order some from Greenhouse too to compare them.

If you want to create a autoflower version of the white widow that is as close as possible to the original than you have to use this breeding way.

WW X Auto = f1 (50/50 WW/Auto)
-> Go to f3 till full auto we will call them WWA
-> the next step is a backcross
WW x WWA = f1 (75/25 WW/Auto)
->Go again to f3 till full auto we will call them WWA bx1
-> the next step is the backcross 2
WW X WWA bx1 = f1 (87,5/12,5 WW/Auto)

You can see in this example with every backcross you reduce the traits from the Autoflower parent.

To choose the right autoflower for this project you can use every strain because you want to breed against them but to start with a auto white widow can make it easier.

I got a long time project like this with TomHill haze , I am at f3 auto but lost my original haze seeds. This project is for 2025 and I talked to Tom and he will send me some seeds and offered me to test the auto to look how close I come to the original.

I hope it helps my friend
Have a nice day
cu tobe

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Hey @Bob's Auto's
No problem hijacking my thread. To the White widow, the original are from Greenhouse seeds. Arijan take a manga Rosa from Brazil and crosses it with a other strain as I know right. I know growers from Brazil who knows exactly were the start genetic comes from. I will ask them at the weekend than I got the time to chat with my friend.
I ordered some regular seeds from RQS they got the seeds from Arijan and they are legit but I will order some from Greenhouse too to compare them.

If you want to create a autoflower version of the white widow that is as close as possible to the original than you have to use this breeding way.

WW X Auto = f1 (50/50 WW/Auto)
-> Go to f3 till full auto we will call them WWA
-> the next step is a backcross
WW x WWA = f1 (75/25 WW/Auto)
->Go again to f3 till full auto we will call them WWA bx1
-> the next step is the backcross 2
WW X WWA bx1 = f1 (87,5/12,5 WW/Auto)

You can see in this example with every backcross you reduce the traits from the Autoflower parent.

To choose the right autoflower for this project you can use every strain because you want to breed against them but to start with a auto white widow can make it easier.

I got a long time project like this with TomHill haze , I am at f3 auto but lost my original haze seeds. This project is for 2025 and I talked to Tom and he will send me some seeds and offered me to test the auto to look how close I come to the original.

I hope it helps my friend
Have a nice day
cu tobe

So this breeding chart makes sense to you? Disregard the Black Widow mentioned as I made this graph to ask a question at Mr.Nice forum, which isn't appreciated if you are not one of the "in" crew. Long story short, got banned

 

[Bob's Auto's]

but lost my original haze seeds.

Sorry to hear that. To prevent such a thing I especially build the second tent. I plan on keeping my mums and dads in there so my backcrosses are always to the original parents which I selected.
If you talk to your buddy in Brasil and he can spare some of those original manga rosa seeds. I've got plenty to give away!! auto's that is of course.

 

[ShuShu]

Hey @Bob's Auto's
Mr. Nice Seedbank has white widow. Shantibaba I believe created it
It's called Black Widow and considered the only "True" White Widow in regular seed form

 

[tobe]

Hey @Bob's Auto's
Mr. Nice Seedbank has white widow. Shantibaba I believe created it
It's called Black Widow and considered the only "True" White Widow in regular seed form

Hey ShuShu
Thanks for this info I will buy one pack from Mr. Nice too , good to have one more to compare.

Sorry to hear that. To prevent such a thing I especially build the second tent. I plan on keeping my mums and dads in there so my backcrosses are always to the original parents which I selected.
If you talk to your buddy in Brasil and he can spare some of those original manga rosa seeds. I've got plenty to give away!! auto's that is of course.

Hey Bob's Auto's
Keep selected mums and dad's alive is always good. All depends on the breeding plan you got and the available space.

 

[Bob's Auto's]

Hey ShuShu
Thanks for this info I will buy one pack from Mr. Nice too , good to have one more to compare.

Maybe read the post below before you decide. And then use the auction site if you do dicide on buying seeds there. It'll save you some money for sure. You do have to be patient as I had to wait 6 weeks on my seeds...But if you have time and plan things accordingly not a reason not to buy of course.

Hey @Bob's Auto's
Mr. Nice Seedbank has white widow. Shantibaba I believe created it
It's called Black Widow and considered the only "True" White Widow in regular seed form

I know all three origin stories. The problem is, they all claim they have the original.
White Widow was created at GHS, that's a fact. Then Scott (Shantibaba/Waterboy, depends on who you ask ) got into a fit with Arjan and left GHS, claiming he took the parents with him. Then there is Ingemar (De Sjamaan), who also worked for/with Arjan. He found the seeds that made White Widow and suppose he gave the plant and copyright to Arjan too use. He also gave several cuts too Henk at Dutch Passion.

So far the history...Now in the meantime all three seedhouses who until the mid 90's were legally producing seed all got raided by the police. Ingemar was the only one with a goverment certificate to grow outside for medical purposes. If the White Widow was in it's fields it surely got air pollinated by neighboring plants, remember...pollen can travel for miles and miles and still be good to go.
Scott was residing in Switzerland at that time and evaded those busts, but he got so eager selling legal weed across the border into Italy (as potpoury, I'm not joking!!), they fucked it up for all the legitimate growers in the region and so all of them got raided as most of 'm only got a license to grow CBD. He even talked about it in one of the few interviews he gave (search YouTube). He admitted lossing his 'special male' and the White Widow mother. And this happened at least two times. So he had to start from seeds at least two times. Then there is the discussion on his own forum where he explains Black Widow is backcrossed to one of the parents and then sibbling mated. In fact creating a totally different cultivar or at the very least a different selection based upon phenotype.
Henk's methods were a bit more like in the old days. He didn't put his eggs in the same basket and spread out his grows. But who knows which got raided, I couldn't find more info on it.

See how complicated this whole story gets and it changes depending on who you ask. That's why I don't care about the politics. I only want to find my White Widow, the Widow I smoked...Breda/Bergen-op-Zoom region and two years ago in Catweazle. So I know it's still out there and I'm willing to go far to find it