Nutrients Prescription Blend Grows SweetSeeds in AutoPots - Test by Only1Sky

[Only1Sky]

Hi @Waira - thanks for checking in. Yes, the Killer Kush as been in bloom now for almost two weeks. I checked the soil pH back on Feb 13th. That was their day 23. I took several readings; all very close, average was 6.65. As per your suggestion again, I check pH yesterday, their day 48. Three readings gave 6.6, 6.4, and 6.6 for an average of 6.533. What does this mean, if anything?

 

[Prescription Blend]

Hi @Waira - thanks for checking in. Yes, the Killer Kush as been in bloom now for almost two weeks. I checked the soil pH back on Feb 13th. That was their day 23. I took several readings; all very close, average was 6.65. As per your suggestion again, I check pH yesterday, their day 48. Three readings gave 6.6, 6.4, and 6.6 for an average of 6.533. What does this mean, if anything?

Your pH seems to be stable and in the range where you want it to be. If your pH was not stable in the soil media with fluctuations or drift it can lead to calcium absorption issues for the plants. I assume that is what @Waira was getting at.

 

[Waira]

mates,....

...let me check, I forgot if you are in (true) soil or soilless,....... coco and Autopots, that's right! How are you checking the coco pH in-pot Sky, with a good pH probe? What's the res' pH been at? Coco as you know generally likes it lower pH than soil, about 6.0,... those are a bit high if taken at face value, but not enough to really cause a problem with P or Ca,... Hmmm! Good that it's been stable...
One thing that bugs me is that to date, I can't find one of the pH nutrient availability charts specific to coco! It's not as bitchy as hydro', but more so than true soil plus the usual quirky CEC properties,...
Have symptoms progressed? New pics if so please, might help,... And did you try a foliar with Kelpful? Actually, I'm not sure which Part has the best Ca content = -- oh damn, that last post looks like I forgot to type a line or two about foliar spraying! ...brain, eyes and fingers not in sync' -
Let's ask @Prescription Blend what Part(s) would make the best foliar for this...

Your pH seems to be stable and in the range where you want it to be. If your pH was not stable in the soil media with fluctuations or drift it can lead to calcium absorption issues for the plants. I assume that is what @Waira was getting at.

aaaand that's yet another possible wrinkle! Since Ca is a key component in the nutrient transportation highway, if that's lacking, it can affect P uptake, transport and metabolism .. symptoms caused by symptoms! Now you see why most peep's avoid diagnostics like bad breath!

I'd say if his pH is close enough (actually in good range for Ca availability), it might be that the coco is losing some of the CEC buffering and hogging more Ca than it should,... Sky, about bloom, I meant are you running the bloom cycle feed chart regime?

 

[Only1Sky]

Hi @Waira -- A few responses to your kind post above. My two Sweet Seed Killer Kushes are in 3-liter RainScience Grow Bags with a mix of coco and perlite. (I know I've titled the thread "Autopots" - but that's because there's 4 Sweet Seed plants running in AutoPots.) Both the MegaCrop gal and Prescription Blend gal started bloom about 3 weeks ago, and both went on their respective BLOOM schedule immediately.

I have been giving the PB plant foliar spray consisting of kelp extract, OF Transport and a dash of cal-mag.

Also about 4 days ago I mixed up a separate batch of PB nutrients to use exclusively for this Killer Kush plant. The mix is at 50% increase over the recommendations on the chart. She gets feed with this mix at 2.5 or 2.75 liters once every other day. She's had two feedings so far.

I think the symptoms are slowly increasing. Here's a bunch of photos:

First, the two plants side by side. This is their day 50. Greenleaf on left, Prescription Blend (PB) on right.

Here again, this time PB on left and Greenleaf on right:

Now a closer look at the PB plant:

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I'm now seeing the same (or similar) problem showing up on the Greenleaf plant as well. But only on just a couple of interior leaves. Here's a look at this plant:

 

[Waira]

thanks for the memory jog! I start to lose track with all I see after a while....

And this changes things Sky, my bad! Now I know these aren't stuck on the Autopot bases, I need to ask what kind of run-off do you generate each time? Coco needs that 15+% run-off each time to keep purging out built-up salts, and restore the balance of nutes in there; usually one takes a pH reading and ppm of the run-off, knowing what went in initially...
Now looking at the new symptoms, those are a new combo to my eyes! And it makes me suspect there's a nute build-up in there, antagonistic interactions, blocking uptake... I think there's a fight between Ca, Mg and P going on in there! And the possible issue with the coco being off it's CEC buffer as well, complicating things... But the top pics with the (now) pronounced interveinal chlorosis with necrotic spots looks like Mg defc. layered over P and/or Ca defc.,....mixed symptoms can become difficult to decipher. Have you checked out the second page of the Q&D Defc. Pic Depot and had a look at the nutrient interaction charts?
Pending what you say about run-off, pH, ppm's, it may be necessary to do a special type of flushing.. In coco, the recommendation I saw for this is to use RO/Di water, with 150ppm of "Ca-Mg" (not sure what part that equates to in PB), plus another 150ppm of base nutes, pH 6.0; pour through until run-off is at or near input values. This help reset the CEC and not leave the coco devoid of any nutes....
All this comes from the general idea that coco is really a hydro-type medium, made for frequent light feeding, by hand, drip system, etc.,... It's one of the head-slappers I have when considering the Autopot system which of course, does basically the opposite- -- and works!
I see soooo many coco patients in Sick Bay, overwhelmingly root cause is treating coco like true soil, and usually with huge ppm build-up in the pots... pH can be in range, but still have that overload of nute salts in there....

 

[Only1Sky]

Oh boy. "interveinal chlorosis with necrotic spots" --- you know that kind of talk just makes me wet.

And I now suspect that wetness may have something to do with this problem. I been a little "cheap" with the nutrients, and only feeding enough to get a very slight run-off; sometimes only dampness on the bottom of the pot. Definitely nowhere near 15%.

This is interesting; 'cause in my early coco-in-fiber-pot grows (2016), I always got enough run-off to need the wet-dry vac every morning. And those were some of my highest yielding grows.

I've never checked the pH and ppm's of run-off. Guess its time to start. 1st-things-1st, I got to get a new pH meter for liquid as I killed my BlueLab probe by letting it dry out.

Thanks for your continued observations here. This is great learning for me.

 

[St. Tom]

Oh boy. "interveinal chlorosis with necrotic spots" --- you know that kind of talk just makes me wet.

And I now suspect that wetness may have something to do with this problem. I been a little "cheap" with the nutrients, and only feeding enough to get a very slight run-off; sometimes only dampness on the bottom of the pot. Definitely nowhere near 15%.

This is interesting; 'cause in my early coco-in-fiber-pot grows (2016), I always got enough run-off to need the wet-dry vac every morning. And those were some of my highest yielding grows.

I've never checked the pH and ppm's of run-off. Guess its time to start. 1st-things-1st, I got to get a new pH meter for liquid as I killed my BlueLab probe by letting it dry out.

Thanks for your continued observations here. This is great learning for me.

ive learned so much in my last 2 grows sky mainly about runoff salt build-up and ph fluctuations as you know i grow in coco but i think no matter what medium you use runoff is essential i go about 20 per cent also some great girls as always sky you always deliver on whatever you grow

 

[Prescription Blend]

@Only1Sky interesting that your seeing the same symptoms coming in on the other killer kush getting MC. From your first pic the plants have a good green color, not like the first time when it looked a shade light.

In peat based soil media people often rotate feed, feed, water but this doesn’t work as well in Coco which is why people want to get that 10-15%run off. This is something that has also confused me with autopots since there is no runoff at all but I think this has to do with how dry the pots get between feedings.

If your seeing it on both killer kush getting different nutrients, and using the same media for both of these and the autopot plants getting the two nutrient mixes then I see two variables.

1) strain difference, both killer kush are showing this same issue but none of the other strains getting the same nutrients are.

2) hand water vs autopots, there could be some difference in what’s happening in the root zone in these that is leading to the issue.

I agree with @Waira that there might be some value in flushing the media just in case there is something going on there. For coco, I flush starting with a little plain pH6 water until the runoff is ~500ppm or less. Then 1/4 strength nutrient followed by full strength to refeed. I know there are a lot of different ways to flush but that was alway my go to method.

How are the others in autopots looking?

 

[Only1Sky]

@Prescription Blend -- nice set of comments there, and very much appreciated. I've been increasing run-off the last few days, and I will have a new pH pen tomorrow, so I'll start checking ppm & pH of runoff. Depending of what we see, and what continues with the leaves, I may well do the flush program.

In the meantime.... your quite right that I'm over-due posting photos of the 4 plants in AutoPots. They have shown NONE of the problems encountered with the two gals being top-fed in the 3 liter RainScience Grow Bags. Their tent is crowed now and I need some rearrangement and gymnastics to get decent pics. Will try to do that tomorrow.

 

[Waira]

Oh boy. "interveinal chlorosis with necrotic spots" --- you know that kind of talk just makes me wet.

And I now suspect that wetness may have something to do with this problem. I been a little "cheap" with the nutrients, and only feeding enough to get a very slight run-off; sometimes only dampness on the bottom of the pot. Definitely nowhere near 15%.

This is interesting; 'cause in my early coco-in-fiber-pot grows (2016), I always got enough run-off to need the wet-dry vac every morning. And those were some of my highest yielding grows.

I've never checked the pH and ppm's of run-off. Guess its time to start. 1st-things-1st, I got to get a new pH meter for liquid as I killed my BlueLab probe by letting it dry out.

Thanks for your continued observations here. This is great learning for me.

you're my kinda sick mate! ....I hope you mean under the eyes,...

To me, coco is a calling,...... seen several fine growers in soil/peat do miserably in coco, even following the typical by-hand feeding protocol; drip line users seem to do better generally! And a fair number of peep's seem to get away with treating coco more or less like soil, but sooner or later it bites them in the ass. Sick Bay is always packed with coco users, #1 problem medium hands down!
Because of it's good water holding, yet good draining and breathing properties, it can handle the constant wetness very well, in fact that constant purging is key as it helps remove "spent" or excess nutes from the coco, and as it does, it draws in fresh air when draining... the major factor here is the nutes concentration, EC/ppm's... I cite the orchid growers mantra, an apt analogy : fertilize weakly, weekly,.. but with coco of course that more or less daily!
So I'm not surprised by the better results you had in coco when doing the wet-vac routine!
As for the Autopots, I'm not 100% on this, but as a general rule, folks seem to be running lower ppm's in the res' than even true hydro growers do... this is certainly part of the why behind how well coco works with this system; there's still frequent replenishing and balancing of the component nutes in there, but at low conc., maybe it's avoiding such build-up and the roots are taking up just enough to keep things in check,.. My coco guru Arty-Zan ran his brilliant grows in coco with ppm's as high as 800+, depending on what the girls were telling him,... 20-40% run-off depending on water source and the constant pH and EC readings going in vs. coming out.... Coco is very labor intensive unless in a system like drip, or Autopots... the upside is one can grow monsters in tiny pot volume, if you have the time and set-up!
pH meters are like a bloody pet! Even off season, I have to deal with mine monthy just to make sure the bulb doesn't get dry and fragg'-out on me,.. proper storage solution is key too, RO/Di water will ruin it eventually (has to do with how they work, very peculiar). Blue Labs actually has very good info about how they work, care, etc.,... But all are touchy instruments, no way around it... I still recommend getting a good soil/medium pH probe, like the Accurate 8 , or identical unit under a different brand name outside USA,... For Autopots, not being cycled like usual, it can be helpful just to check if there's trouble,...

interesting that your seeing the same symptoms coming in on the other killer kush getting MC. From your first pic the plants have a good green color, not like the first time when it looked a shade light.

I wonder if some of it is that damn odd LED Ca/Mg demand syndrome?

If your seeing it on both killer kush getting different nutrients, and using the same media for both of these and the autopot plants getting the two nutrient mixes then I see two variables.

1) strain difference, both killer kush are showing this same issue but none of the other strains getting the same nutrients are.

2) hand water vs autopots, there could be some difference in what’s happening in the root zone in these that is leading to the issue.

I agree with @Waira that there might be some value in flushing the media just in case there is something going on there. For coco, I flush starting with a little plain pH6 water until the runoff is ~500ppm or less. Then 1/4 strength nutrient followed by full strength to refeed. I know there are a lot of different ways to flush but that was alway my go to method.

I think what that coco-pro recommendation said about this special flush soln. was that water alone isn't enough to dislodge cations off the particles very well, some sort of stronger charge is needed to boot them off. By having both strongly charged Ca++, Mg++ and some nutes in the soln., you cover the CEC "fixing" base and the balanced nutrition base covered all in one shot,... I think the weak nutes are kept so, so that they don't interfere with the restoration of the CEC with Ca/Mg.... Give it a day, then back to bizz as usual with nute solution!