Lighting IS IT WORTH GETTING A COB LED??

[Slater]

hey buddy just got round to this post and look like evryone hjas step in... my two pennys

DON'T buy the Roland waste of money for the price, at most it may match your Mars... it may.

for the same price you can get single cree cob fixture from cobshop.net or black sails ( I highly recommend both company's, they are on par with each other and both products do the same, and are the same in many ways... if your in the EU i can give you some links to a couple of local suppliers of the same tech to save on shipping.

If you want to go DIY, please don't be scared, I'm artist and no way near an electronics engineer, I had the same attitude towards it at the start but jumped on in at the deep end and found its super shallow...it's very easy to build... I leave the science up to others a follow there advice... check our growmua5 on youtube

 

[bakEQuatorial]

I have both COBs and QBs. My 2 cents is:

QBs are more efficient than Cobs. Most QBs use Samsung mid power high efficiency diodes and while can reach 200+lm/w, the common is around 170-180++lm/w. From what I understand, COBs are close but not there yet unless more is spent, which defeats the purpose.

QBs are much more flexible than COBs. You can have them in many shapes, sizes. You don't even need a heatsink if you run them soft. They are very slim and even with heatsink is only a few cm thick.

If you want the most light/brightness/lumens/par watever while paying less $ and electricity bills, read up on QBs. You won't regret it and its pretty easy.

If your space/ plant requires lights with good penetration, go with COBs. If you like to experiment, try mixing both like @Slater. But I'd suggest dimming capabilities on both COBs and QBs if you were to mix. They are very different in intensity and spread

Forget the Chinese brands you mentioned. Its not even bout the country. Its basically a trading company that can do some good marketing in English (In English speaking markets) teaming up with a local Chinese company to sell lights. The trading company wants to make a few hundred percent in profits and thats really the story behind ALL these rebranded lights. Its just variations and different degrees of these "relationships" they share. Too bad many are oblivious.

While I'm at it, there are no knockoffs unless a brand name is infringed. No one has rights to any of these techs. Perhaps design but its bs cos I just add ONE diode and prob solved!

Hope you don't turn into a light addict like me…lol


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[Black Sail]

I think this is why we are supposed to stick to our own areas. While I’m here and since you brought up my lights ... $$ isn’t the answer to every problem. Ever hear of the daily light integral?

@BigSm0 lights are cheaper with a better spectrum.

Hey BigSm0! I was responding to Mañ'O'Green's comment brotha, I didn't bring it up. I think your lights are awesome, lol mine are basically the exact same thing except bigger. The guy said my lights are more expensive so I had to show him the math, please don't take it as a criticism of the Autocob. I've put my entire life and all my time & money into giving people a powerful, cheap, efficient COB LED so if someone criticizes my prices I have to respond with the facts.

People keep bringing up your prices when they try to talk shit about mine, so I have to explain the difference between a 240W fixture and a 55W fixture. Objectively my lights are cheap as hell so I find this upsetting, of all the price gougers out there they come after me? I'll try not to get drawn into making direct comparisons anymore, because we're selling two different products and I think you're one of the good guys in this gnarly ass industry.

Honestly I think The Cannon and the Autocob would go together like peanut butter and jelly. 240 Watts is a big step, and yeah it's going to be too much light in many situations. For smaller steps up in PPF The Cannon is too intense and the Autocob is perfect. For situations where you need more power... of course one big light is going to be cheaper than several smaller ones, that's why I designed it that way! Three Cannons are too much light for a 4x4, but two Cannons and two Autocobs? Perfect....

 

[Black Sail]

Here is a link to the definition of PAR - Photosynthetically active radiation which includes an explanation of spectrum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation

The light emitted by a cob in the PAR range is not equal across the color spectrum and different COBs can have very different spectrums. They are shown on a graph like this:View attachment 963933 View attachment 963935

There is endless debate about what spectrum is perfect. IMHO it is different for every plant but there is some good averages out there.

From an efficiency standpoint running @ 50% wattage with more light fixtures will cost you less for a better yield. You can also have too much or unneeded light.

Thanks man, I see you're using Cree's spectrum output graph. I prefer the one from Citizen since that's the brand I use and it includes 3500K 80CRI, which is the color I use. 3500K 80CRI is the long-accepted industry standard for full cycle growth, and I get outstanding yields and quality using it in my own garden.

I also like to combine it with 3000K 90 CRI for flowering, and I've done multiple runs experimenting with supplemental 660nm photo red, 730nm far red, and 390-400nm UVA. You can see them all on my IG @blacksailfarm.

Made of parts I scavenged from the warehouse when I worked at Rapid LED:smoking:


My COBs max at over 500 Watts, so they're at 46% while running at 240 Watts. You definitely want them at 50% or below, but that's not the whole picture. You can have a COB running at 50% and if the COB sucks the efficiency will still suck. You want to measure it in umol/J, because there's no easy way to fudge with that number. My COBs get 2.0umol/J at 240 Watts. It's just a much bigger COB than people are used to seeing.

I hope that clears everything up! I welcome any and all questions :smoking:

 

[bakEQuatorial]

I also like to combine it with 3000K 90 CRI for flowering, and I've done multiple runs experimenting with supplemental 660nm photo red, 730nm far red, and 390-400nm UVA. You can see them all on my IG @blacksailfarm.
:

I hope that clears everything up! I welcome any and all questions :smoking:

I actually wanted to play with 90CRI next run too in addition to my current 80CRI. I read about the differences/ pros & cons of both and the effect it can have. Would like to know what you have personally experienced? Also, there has not been much talk around here with emphasis to red supplementation. I figure since autos can go 24/0, the initiator effect would not matter. However, the Emerson effect, which I'm not knowledgeable about would be interesting. What have you observed with your grows? Would you recommend it?

Whats your current light recipe after all your testing?

You did say we could ask.....lol



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[ZKJ]

hey buddy just got round to this post and look like evryone hjas step in... my two pennys

DON'T buy the Roland waste of money for the price, at most it may match your Mars... it may.

for the same price you can get single cree cob fixture from cobshop.net or black sails ( I highly recommend both company's, they are on par with each other and both products do the same, and are the same in many ways... if your in the EU i can give you some links to a couple of local suppliers of the same tech to save on shipping.

If you want to go DIY, please don't be scared, I'm artist and no way near an electronics engineer, I had the same attitude towards it at the start but jumped on in at the deep end and found its super shallow...it's very easy to build... I leave the science up to others a follow there advice... check our growmua5 on youtube

Cheers man very helpfull answer i am in the eu aswell (soon to be leaving it though lol)
I could use the links cheers

 

[ZKJ]

I have both COBs and QBs. My 2 cents is:

QBs are more efficient than Cobs. Most QBs use Samsung mid power high efficiency diodes and while can reach 200+lm/w, the common is around 170-180++lm/w. From what I understand, COBs are close but not there yet unless more is spent, which defeats the purpose.

QBs are much more flexible than COBs. You can have them in many shapes, sizes. You don't even need a heatsink if you run them soft. They are very slim and even with heatsink is only a few cm thick.

If you want the most light/brightness/lumens/par watever while paying less $ and electricity bills, read up on QBs. You won't regret it and its pretty easy.

If your space/ plant requires lights with good penetration, go with COBs. If you like to experiment, try mixing both like @Slater. But I'd suggest dimming capabilities on both COBs and QBs if you were to mix. They are very different in intensity and spread

Forget the Chinese brands you mentioned. Its not even bout the country. Its basically a trading company that can do some good marketing in English (In English speaking markets) teaming up with a local Chinese company to sell lights. The trading company wants to make a few hundred percent in profits and thats really the story behind ALL these rebranded lights. Its just variations and different degrees of these "relationships" they share. Too bad many are oblivious.

While I'm at it, there are no knockoffs unless a brand name is infringed. No one has rights to any of these techs. Perhaps design but its bs cos I just add ONE diode and prob solved!

Hope you don't turn into a light addict like me…lol


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Cheers man very detailed.i willd definitely tty not to turn into a light addict.i might try my mars 600w led on some good seeds and see what the light can do.

 

[Black Sail]

I actually wanted to play with 90CRI next run too in addition to my current 80CRI. I read about the differences/ pros & cons of both and the effect it can have. Would like to know what you have personally experienced? Also, there has not been much talk around here with emphasis to red supplementation. I figure since autos can go 24/0, the initiator effect would not matter. However, the Emerson effect, which I'm not knowledgeable about would be interesting. What have you observed with your grows? Would you recommend it?

Whats your current light recipe after all your testing?

You did say we could ask.....lol



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flower Initiation

Flower Initiation is awesome for photos, but it probably won't make a difference with autos. For photoperiods, flowering is triggered by a pigment called phytochrome. It has an ctive state(Pfr) and an inactive state(Pr). In the dark it takes about two hours for all the phytochrome to switch from its active form (Pfr) to its inactive form (Pr). When it all stays inactive (Pr) for 10 to 12 hours every night the plant goes into flower.

If you give the plant 730nm far red for 15 minutes after lights out, all the phyotochrome switches to its inactive state in 15 minutes instead of two hours, effectively lengthening your dark period and speeding up the flowering process. This shit really works! I've seen it with my own two eyes, check out my IG @blacksailfarm. Especially during the stretch phase, photoperiod plants will go through this phase in 1 week instead of 2. Since the dark cycle doesn't effect flowering for autos you probably won't get the same results.

If you want to try flower initiation you can get a 7 Watt (you don't need much!) growmau5 far red puck for less than $40 at Rapid LED, it's plug & play and it'll cover a 3'x3'.

The Emerson Effect

Photosynthesis is a two step process. Chlorophyll A absorbs ~660nm light into an electron, does its thing, then passes the electron off to Chlorophyll B. Chlorophyll B absorbs ~730nm light into the same electron, then finishes off the cycle:

Emerson figured out that since the two systems work together, when you give the plant 660nm + 730nm together you get almost twice the results!

3000K 90CRI

Higher CRI comes at a cost in efficiency, but it shifts the light more towards the red end of the spectrum. So, in the case of 3000K you might get more growth from the increased red even though the total amount of light is a little bit lower. 80 CRI is usually your best bet, but for 3000K the difference in far red between 80 CRI and 90 CRI is pretty huge:

As you get below 3000K you lose efficiency and barely get any gain in far red, so 3000K is the lowest Kelvin I'd go for. 3000K 80CRI is a great flowering light, but if you want that extra far red go for some 3000K 90CRI. Mixed 50/50 with 3500K 80CRI either one will rock out.

Happy growing!

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

Thanks man, I see you're using Cree's spectrum output graph. I prefer the one from Citizen since that's the brand I use and it includes 3500K 80CRI, which is the color I use. 3500K 80CRI is the long-accepted industry standard for full cycle growth, and I get outstanding yields and quality using it in my own garden.

I also like to combine it with 3000K 90 CRI for flowering, and I've done multiple runs experimenting with supplemental 660nm photo red, 730nm far red, and 390-400nm UVA. You can see them all on my IG @blacksailfarm.


View attachment 964097
Made of parts I scavenged from the warehouse when I worked at Rapid LED:smoking:


My COBs max at over 500 Watts, so they're at 46% while running at 240 Watts. You definitely want them at 50% or below, but that's not the whole picture. You can have a COB running at 50% and if the COB sucks the efficiency will still suck. You want to measure it in umol/J, because there's no easy way to fudge with that number. My COBs get 2.0umol/J at 240 Watts. It's just a much bigger COB than people are used to seeing.

I hope that clears everything up! I welcome any and all questions :smoking:

I just popped a chart for info only. I run Citizen 1212 3500K 90 cri with a couple of royal blue 1212s and 6 -730nm SemiLeds when using the far red. I had no idea you are a vendor and you should note that when suggest your product.

What does your PPFD chart look like at the 16" to 18" inch recommended. What Citizen cob are you running?

 

[bakEQuatorial]

Flower Initiation

Flower Initiation is awesome for photos, but it probably won't make a difference with autos. For photoperiods, flowering is triggered by a pigment called phytochrome. It has an ctive state(Pfr) and an inactive state(Pr). In the dark it takes about two hours for all the phytochrome to switch from its active form (Pfr) to its inactive form (Pr). When it all stays inactive (Pr) for 10 to 12 hours every night the plant goes into flower.

If you give the plant 730nm far red for 15 minutes after lights out, all the phyotochrome switches to its inactive state in 15 minutes instead of two hours, effectively lengthening your dark period and speeding up the flowering process. This shit really works! I've seen it with my own two eyes, check out my IG @blacksailfarm. Especially during the stretch phase, photoperiod plants will go through this phase in 1 week instead of 2. Since the dark cycle doesn't effect flowering for autos you probably won't get the same results.

If you want to try flower initiation you can get a 7 Watt (you don't need much!) growmau5 far red puck for less than $40 at Rapid LED, it's plug & play and it'll cover a 3'x3'.

The Emerson Effect

Photosynthesis is a two step process. Chlorophyll A absorbs ~660nm light into an electron, does its thing, then passes the electron off to Chlorophyll B. Chlorophyll B absorbs ~730nm light into the same electron, then finishes off the cycle:

View attachment 964165

Emerson figured out that since the two systems work together, when you give the plant 660nm + 730nm together you get almost twice the results!

View attachment 964166

3000K 90CRI

Higher CRI comes at a cost in efficiency, but it shifts the light more towards the red end of the spectrum. So, in the case of 3000K you might get more growth from the increased red even though the total amount of light is a little bit lower. 80 CRI is usually your best bet, but for 3000K the difference in far red between 80 CRI and 90 CRI is pretty huge:
View attachment 964168
As you get below 3000K you lose efficiency and barely get any gain in far red, so 3000K is the lowest Kelvin I'd go for. 3000K 80CRI is a great flowering light, but if you want that extra far red go for some 3000K 90CRI. Mixed 50/50 with 3500K 80CRI either one will rock out.

Happy growing!

I understand what you mentioned and is in line with what I read too. Great to know it really works.

Here is my question. I get mixing 80 and 90CRI for a better spectrum as 90CRI leans more to the red side. Most will agree that the slight inefficiency of the 90CRI is offset by its spectrum. So mixing makes sense as it gives the best of both worlds. Efficiency + redder leaning spectrum.

But aren't you already adding red mono diodes?

I feel that adding CRI90 and also supplementing mono reds might be overkill. I'm gonna try with all CRI80 to get the best efficiency. But will add supplement similar to HLG35 or the RapidLed type. These red bars give out lotsa red already but as with all red, comes at an efficiency cost.

I guess what I'm trying to say is either mix CRIs or supplement with red. Doing both might lose out on efficiency disproportionately. But this is just a theory. You have way more real experience so would love to pick your brain!


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