Establishing Credibility Guidelines for Breeders

[pop22]

Everyone here should read this:

Inside the billion-dollar race to patent cannabis

Leafly investigation: Inside the billion-dollar race to patent cannabis

Backstabbing partners, secret financial backers, hired-gun geneticists: Welcome to Leafly's series on the new cannabis patent war.

www.leafly.com

 

[Disburped]

Everyone here should read this:

Inside the billion-dollar race to patent cannabis

Leafly investigation: Inside the billion-dollar race to patent cannabis

Backstabbing partners, secret financial backers, hired-gun geneticists: Welcome to Leafly's series on the new cannabis patent war.

www.leafly.com

Thank you, this is the real madness coming but don't worry, I will pollen chuck in my 7 sqft tent lights on 24/7. Expect to pheno hunt in the post-patent future.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

Alright, collating some talking points from the past 8 pages about things people want to see with breeders or suggestion made:

• Finding common ground on definition of breeders (commercial, hobby,) seed banks, seed exchanges, etc.
• Results from grow journals or results from Instagram posts
• Breeders willingness to be open about breeding practices, sharing methods, showing pictures of their breeding room and projects, etc.
• Breeder having a website or an IG presence
• Location of breeder (some folks just want to purchase within the USA for example)
• How the breeder resolves customer service, issue, support, complaints, disputes, etc.
• Creating a blacklist for BAD or untrusted breeders/companies.
• Creating a simple exam for potential breeders to fill out before coming on to the AFN forum (likely answering many of the above points.)
• Creating a "staging program" for breeders joining AFN.
• Creating some sort of accreditation for breeders on the forum.
• Breeders willingness to discuss the pedigree of their genetics
• The professionalism breeders show online on ALL platforms.
• Limiting genetics to AFN's testing program/testers (which encompasses a wide variety of skill levels.)

 

[Olderfart]

Alright, collating some talking points from the past 8 pages about things people want to see with breeders or suggestion made:

• Finding common ground on definition of breeders (commercial, hobby,) seed banks, seed exchanges, etc.
• Results from grow journals or results from Instagram posts
• Breeders willingness to be open about breeding practices, sharing methods, showing pictures of their breeding room and projects, etc.
• Breeder having a website or an IG presence
• Location of breeder (some folks just want to purchase within the USA for example)
• How the breeder resolves customer service, issue, support, complaints, disputes, etc.
• Creating a blacklist for BAD or untrusted breeders/companies.
• Creating a simple exam for potential breeders to fill out before coming on to the AFN forum (likely answering many of the above points.)
• Creating a "staging program" for breeders joining AFN.
• Creating some sort of accreditation for breeders on the forum.
• Breeders willingness to discuss the pedigree of their genetics
• The professionalism breeders show online on ALL platforms.
• Limiting genetics to AFN's testing program/testers (which encompasses a wide variety of skill levels.)

Good summary @Son of Hobbes . I would like to add a minor note of perspective to the mix. It seems to me that the primary purpose we need to keep in mind here is provision of guidance to AFN members on where they can obtain high quality seed, and receive high quality service. A secondary but parallel function is to support and encourage breeders and seed suppliers to keep improving genetics and service levels.

Whatever system is put in place, I suggest that it needs to avoid getting too fussy about separating breeders and seedbanks, however these are defined. The issue for AFN members is knowing where can we get high quality seed and reliable service. So, lets not forget the seedbanks in our quest to provide more information about individual breeders. Inevitably, us AFN members will end up using both at times, so good information on both will be handy.

Thanks for your efforts here, and ditto for the others that have worked on this or responded about it.

 

[Heavily Medicated]

In my opinion, the difference between a pollen chucker and a breeder is their credentials. I took an intro genetics class in college and know that it is not a simple subject at all. Anybody can just throw pollen from one to the other, but knowing and having some science behind what you are doing makes you a breeder. Breeders are not concerned about the economics of what they're doing, only the bettering of desirable genetics. Don't know how this all falls in with what's going on, but my crazy ranting.

 

[Disburped]

I understand the issue and the need for a solution but just want to shout a warning.
Not all good breeders are active on social platform or operate in legal state or even indoor. The breeder I was impressed by the last time was a lesser known breeder from Switzerland (Top Tao seeds) and it's not legal operation, they operate outdoor and say they recieve seeds from horticultural students, sailors and whatnot. It's too much to expect illegal breeders to be active and share images on instagram of their operation, and none of that matter if they breed for traits I don't want. I am not affiliated with them, just a grower and a satisfied customer that support my breeder of choice. So many good breeders out there that are lesser known and the genetic pool is and will always be a global asset.
Also I must say that all breeders that allways spray silver on females are half-breeders .

 

[Disburped]

In my opinion, the difference between a pollen chucker and a breeder is their credentials. I took an intro genetics class in college and know that it is not a simple subject at all. Anybody can just throw pollen from one to the other, but knowing and having some science behind what you are doing makes you a breeder. Breeders are not concerned about the economics of what they're doing, only the bettering of desirable genetics. Don't know how this all falls in with what's going on, but my crazy ranting.

I know this is a common opinion but it's not the whole truth. It's more to it and when it comes to medical strains it does not matter how much the breeder know about genetics, it's all about having access to the right test subject and for outdoor the climate may matter more than the skill of the breeder cause you can't breed for Alaska outdoor in California.
Until we have all possible data on what define a good cultivar we can not know if a pollen chucker won the lottery. It's natural and mutations happen, it's impossible to breed for a specific mutation by skill only.

 

[Proph]

I just want to see genetic honesty from these new seed companies. I won't call them breeders until they have proven to be breeders, lol. The waters are sooo muddy right now. You've got people buying random bulk seeds from who knows where, giving them a cute name and reselling them as "So and so's company" new f4 autos.. You also have people that buy two 3 packs of autos from mephisto or dinafem, make a fem cross, then start selling seeds on strainly. I want them to be honest about what it is.. If it's a random auto cross, just say it.. If it's an original auto made from a photo period, say it. If it's just bulk auto seeds that are renamed, say it. I know this will never actually happen, but that my wish list, lol.

Once you realize how many years it takes to make a decent "original auto", the short cut companies are easier to spot. There are way more fly by night pollen chuckers than there are breeders.

Some (probably most) people who grow autos don't care about genetics, or what they are smoking or buying, or what's in their nutrients or soils.. They mainly care about yield, how big it gets, and if the plant will turn purple. They don't care about herms, or inbreeding issues ect. These short cut companies know this. They know that the auto flowet customer will never ask about the photo period parents or auto parents, stability, intersex traits ect. These new see makers understand that as long as the seed is a fem auto with a cool name, and decent germ rate they can sell it.

Breeders breed for certain traits in the plant, to stabilize certain expressions. They grow hundreds of seeds at once, pick the best one or two that fit their vision, and they breed with it, until it's stable, meaning that almost all plants from seed will be pretty much the same. This takes years to do on a large scale.. Imagine how long it would take in a garage...

A pollen chucker takes pollen and chucks it on plants with no plan except to make crosses and sell/give away seeds.. No plan, vision, or work is put into the cross. This hurts the gene pool..

"Breeding" isn't done inside of tents in spare bedrooms. It's done on farms, or on acres, or in major indoor spaces where hundreds of plants can be grown at once. Pollen chucking is done in tents, inside of houses and apartments and corners of garages.

One of the first question asked to any self proclaimed "breeder" should be "where do you "breed" your plants".

 

[Heavily Medicated]

I know this is a common opinion but it's not the whole truth. It's more to it and when it comes to medical strains it does not matter how much the breeder know about genetics, it's all about having access to the right test subject and for outdoor the climate may matter more than the skill of the breeder cause you can't breed for Alaska outdoor in California.
Until we have all possible data on what define a good cultivar we can not know if a pollen chucker won the lottery. It's natural and mutations happen, it's impossible to breed for a specific mutation by skill only.

One problem is if the oddball pollen chucked plant accidentally grows into fire, there is no stability in any of it so could never be reproduced and would be worthless to a breeder. Developing stable F4 or better strains requires stability all the way down the line, otherwise the seed strain will never be the same twice. Developing a great strain that you can reproduce again and again after the initial stock is depleted requires a whole different skill level to attain. These people are breeders, without the breeders, the pollen chuckers could not exist.:smiley1:

 

[Disburped]

I just want to see genetic honesty from these new seed companies. I won't call them breeders until they have proven to be breeders, lol. The waters are sooo muddy right now. You've got people buying random bulk seeds from who knows where, giving them a cute name and reselling them as "So and so's company" new f4 autos.. You also have people that buy two 3 packs of autos from mephisto or dinafem, make a fem cross, then start selling seeds on strainly. I want them to be honest about what it is.. If it's a random auto cross, just say it.. If it's an original auto made from a photo period, say it. If it's just bulk auto seeds that are renamed, say it. I know this will never actually happen, but that my wish list, lol.

Once you realize how many years it takes to make a decent "original auto", the short cut companies are easier to spot. There are way more fly by night pollen chuckers than there are breeders.

Some (probably most) people who grow autos don't care about genetics, or what they are smoking or buying, or what's in their nutrients or soils.. They mainly care about yield, how big it gets, and if the plant will turn purple. They don't care about herms, or inbreeding issues ect. These short cut companies know this. They know that the auto flowet customer will never ask about the photo period parents or auto parents, stability, intersex traits ect. These new see makers understand that as long as the seed is a fem auto with a cool name, and decent germ rate they can sell it.

Breeders breed for certain traits in the plant, to stabilize certain expressions. They grow hundreds of seeds at once, pick the best one or two that fit their vision, and they breed with it, until it's stable, meaning that almost all plants from seed will be pretty much the same. This takes years to do on a large scale.. Imagine how long it would take in a garage...

A pollen chucker takes pollen and chucks it on plants with no plan except to make crosses and sell/give away seeds.. No plan, vision, or work is put into the cross. This hurts the gene pool..

"Breeding" isn't done inside of tents in spare bedrooms. It's done on farms, or on acres, or in major indoor spaces where hundreds of plants can be grown at once. Pollen chucking is done in tents, inside of houses and apartments and corners of garages.

One of the first question asked to any self proclaimed "breeder" should be "where do you "breed" your plants".

Whatever, it's just not the whole truth. It is one way of breeding but there are other ways too. It's very possible to make a cross in a tent if you have the genetics. It's in the F2 the selection is crucial. I can do that by breeding little by little in a tent or a bunch of F2 outdoor or have access to a collective. It's very possible to sell the F2 to a customer that want to do that selection. What I am trying to say is that it is impossible to make the selection if you don't have the right climate, right test subject for medical or breed for the wrong goal. It's just to see where the famous medical strains come from, it's not from the usual subjects and this will continue to happen in a larger scale the more skilled growers can work legally. So the future will tell and it will show that the selector and the lab rat are the stars and not the breeder with the best setup. Big pharma and big agriculture would win the skill/setup contest 99 out of 100 times so we may all be growing monsanto soon, I don't think so.