Breeding etiquette

[lr2jd]

If you're an artist I can't come to your art show, buy a repro and take it home and print a bunch more of repros and sell them. It's unethical.. why? Because it's theft.

But what if you started repainting the repro youself? That's the thing with genetics: they change every time you reproduce, though these changes are very small, they are in fact happening. It's like whispering a story around in a circle.
Just like repainting a piece of art: it changes slightly every time. If you repeat that process, you'll get an entirely new piece of art in just 5 re-paintings of the first 'handmade copy'. Is that theft too?

A month back I took some power plant cutlings, a few of them stayed the same old same old like the mother. Three others became entirely different phenotypes: one flatstem, one bushier than a virgin in the 1960's, and one super stretchy phenotype. They all come from the same mother. This suggests that phenotypes and their expression can change within a single lifecycle. So, let's say I've bought that piece of art, I burned it, and re-framed the remains. Now I'm reselling it. Is that theft?

I think that's a tough nut to crack. I can't answer it myself either ways, without giving up my point of view.

 

[Horfvitdown]

When we purchase a seed, we theoretically "own" that seed. What we do with that seed is within our discretion. But using that seed to produce more seeds (copying/ripping) and then selling these seeds, isn't considered ethical. Many breeders have worked for countless years to stabilize and produce amazing strains. Sometimes I even feel bad for them knowing someone is going to rip their strain. Breeders deserve all the money they get, regardless of the high-turnover in the seed business. When you work for 5-10 years on 1 strain, you'll expect a lot of money back from it.

Yodabuds put it together well.

I feel as if my ranting did me injustice. I often misrepresent myself in written forums and must clarify i do not endorse selling repros of people's gear. I am working on my own strains but the fact remains that I don't have the resources to hunt out landrace strains to work with.

So any way you cut it i rely on the breeders before me. Let me put that out there.

I don't see the ethical problem with someone reproducing a useful strain in their space for patients who are sick and need to grow their medicine without seeds in small places. There are state laws allowing this but preventing patients from ordering and germinating seeds from Euro seed banks.

For photos, everybody knows they can get seeds but some choose clones. Are the clone sellers stealing those clones?

I don't think there is a solid answer here besides this - people wanna grow weed, the gov don't want them to, breeders want ppl to buy their seeds, some people have integrity, and some don't. I mean, again, apples and oranges literally. Go splice something and charge someone a ton for initial access because they are going to bank out if you don't.

For me, if you have more than two phenos coming from one plant then you didn't breed anything. You just made some seeds.

At the same time, until the laws change, things are as they are. If I made it sound like i am reproducing and distributing seeds that is not the case - it was phrased that way rhetorically. However, i would still argue that if someone couldn't get Meyer lemons and really wanted a tree... I would root them a branch if I had a tree of my own... Tell them it is a Meyer lemon tree that I grew from my yard.

Just breed f8 completely uniform plants and it doesn't matter what you started with. Still, start with two distinct parents for a distinct predetermined reason, and give credit to as many people as you can who contributed to the genetics you now are spreading.

To go with Yoda's Coach bag analogy... I love buying nock off junk at the flea market. Love my Lavis jeans. Love my old school Oakey sunglasses. If someone can fool me into thinking those are genuine products however, then the originals need more distinct manufacturing or branding OR consumers are pretty unaware of the products they're purchasing... 'Cause them ain't Levi's and Oakley's.

Summarizing, there are going to be innovators and imitators. Some people have no choice (I can't afford no dang Oakley's, haha), some people don't care (also me, about Oakley's), and some people will send some seeds back the second they realize the ten pack they ordered isn't in the original breeders pack (learned that the hard way a few years back).

Answer: release fem seeds only? Thus securing genetics. I am sure if people try just reversing females they will have some garbage plants before long right? Or maybe release fems until you feel you've been compensated appropriately for the time spent breeding it and then release it with blessings to the community, expecting credit where deserved?

Or lol why not patent a gene in the plant so you own people after they consume it? Sky's the limit but either way the plant overlords want us to breed them.

I guess im im just curious how this isn't a breeders responsibility? Build buzz, get paid from release, deter consumers from impostors because you can't deter impostors? Sounds like innovation within capitalism to me. Not that I agree with capitalism, I think everybody should just share... But why try to apply ethics to capitalism?

 

[Epic Genetics]

For me, if you have more than two phenos coming from one plant then you didn't breed anything. You just made some seeds.

could you clarify that please , do you meen more then one pheno from one "plant" or one strain ?

if strain , could you please post up some breeders and their strains that you know only produce one pheno

thanks a bunch

peace

 

[VARick]

"For photos, everybody knows they can get seeds but some choose clones. Are the clone sellers stealing those clones?"

This was a question I had while reading through the thread (have not finished reading the thread).
What about the clone AC/DC which is a pheno of Cannatonic? Also speculation that AC/DC pheno has been renamed Charlottes Web.
I feel that as long as you indicate it is a clone of said strain that would be acceptable as you grew it out and give credit so said strain (maybe even indicate original seed stock).
I'm on the fence with the pheno renaming however. While I like the indication that is a sought after pheno, renaming it sort of indicates it is a new strain.
If the speculation of the renaming of the pheno to another name is just for profit sake and headlines, that is unethical in my opinion.

 

[VARick]

I may have also missed it somewhere. What is the proper way to indicate a cross? male strain x female strain? or female strain x male strain?

 

[Epic Genetics]

male last

female strain X male strain

common sense

peace

 

[pop22]

Hey bob question for you or anyone else who like would like to chime in.

Let's take Dutch Passion for example
Let's say someone orders a pack of their AutoMazer. Creates feminize seeds and sells the seeds to people as Dutch Passions AutoMazer is that "legal"?
If the seeds that were created weren't reliable or had any other issues, wouldn't it make Dutch Passion look bad?

What? you expect a patent on a plants?? There is nothing new in this world, all "strains" are variants of a species. Create a new species and then you own something..... Yes, credit for the previous breeders work should be a must, but no one owns a strain. Christ, the whole patent concept has turned around and bitten us all on the ass, and is now stifling innovation, lets not invite it into the plant world... And the Cannabis industry is all ready trying to play that game. Guess who the losers will be?? US!

And why do you think fem seeds, and autofems have gotten so popular with breeders? Because most people will buy seeds rather than mess with clones or try to get a fem to create seeds, and that, is why your starting to see $30 and $40 and seeds.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

The amount of strains out there with indiscernable effects (if you mix up the seeds nobody would be able to tell them apart without lab equipment) is ridiculous. As is not knowing the generations or expecting strainsbeing sold to have already been stabilized. Part of it being mostly illegal I guess. also..

But what if you started repainting the repro youself? That's the thing with genetics: they change every time you reproduce, though these changes are very small, they are in fact happening. It's like whispering a story around in a circle.
Just like repainting a piece of art: it changes slightly every time. If you repeat that process, you'll get an entirely new piece of art in just 5 re-paintings of the first 'handmade copy'. Is that theft too?

A month back I took some power plant cutlings, a few of them stayed the same old same old like the mother. Three others became entirely different phenotypes: one flatstem, one bushier than a virgin in the 1960's, and one super stretchy phenotype. They all come from the same mother. This suggests that phenotypes and their expression can change within a single lifecycle. So, let's say I've bought that piece of art, I burned it, and re-framed the remains. Now I'm reselling it. Is that theft?

I think that's a tough nut to crack. I can't answer it myself either ways, without giving up my point of view.

I'm pretty sure that is impossible considering the fact that a phenotype is just the outward appearance of the genes, so cloning the plant in the same conditions would cause it to have the same pheno. That's the point of cloning vs using seeds... You always get a guaranteed female of your selected pheno.

 

[Horfvitdown]

could you clarify that please , do you meen more then one pheno from one "plant" or one strain ?

if strain , could you please post up some breeders and their strains that you know only produce one pheno

thanks a bunch

peace

Lol yeah man I meant plant. I've seen strains, not from seed banks but strains that growers have worked to a level of consistency where they all grow uniformly if all seeds come from one mother plant which was seeded by one father.

Strains tho... has nobody else ever seen a weed grow from seed with only one phenotype? Takes years but... Mendo Purps? Lavender? Orange Crush? norcal Purple Kush?

like, plant an alder point seed and It will be light and fluffy and fruity and grow like the females next to it.

i can't name a breeder who sells a strain like that off the top of my head, probably because they haven't just worked that strain for 20 years like has happened with some of these classics.

hope that helped, answer being most definitely yes there are old school strains with only one pheno because they have been back worked so long

- - - Updated - - -

male last

female strain X male strain

common sense

peace

lol thats rude, it's clearly not common sense haha like by definition


- - - Updated - - -

"For photos, everybody knows they can get seeds but some choose clones. Are the clone sellers stealing those clones?"

This was a question I had while reading through the thread (have not finished reading the thread).
What about the clone AC/DC which is a pheno of Cannatonic? Also speculation that AC/DC pheno has been renamed Charlottes Web.
I feel that as long as you indicate it is a clone of said strain that would be acceptable as you grew it out and give credit so said strain (maybe even indicate original seed stock).
I'm on the fence with the pheno renaming however. While I like the indication that is a sought after pheno, renaming it sort of indicates it is a new strain.
If the speculation of the renaming of the pheno to another name is just for profit sake and headlines, that is unethical in my opinion.

agreed. Isolate and work he pheno until it is guaranteed from seed then you can name.

thing is, with CBD strains like cannatonic and sour tsunami, the significance of that cut is the high CBD. There is 1:4 chance of getting the CBD cut of sour tsunami. So, if you were to revert a clone and backbreed fem seeds... Pretty relevant which one it is. Still, I prefer labeling as "sour tsunami CBD cut" "sour tsunami super sour cut" etc

 

[Horfvitdown]

could you clarify that please , do you meen more then one pheno from one "plant" or one strain ?

if strain , could you please post up some breeders and their strains that you know only produce one pheno

thanks a bunch

peace

This is may help clarify one photo in a strain

https://www.autoflower.org/f8/phenotypes-back-crossing-bx-765.html