Lighting What should be on a grow light review?

[KonopCh]

Umol/J and nothing else matters.

 

[Olde School Player]

Great info!

So could you summarize that in a simple list of what you think should be on there?

Bwaaahhhh hahaha, Guilty as charged, I have been known to ramble, and to clarify I might have to ramble again in order to explain something I don't quite understand well enough to explain scientifically.
So here's my short list:
Watts consumed - easy
Lumens - from this and watts we can calculate efficiency. Whether it's for HID, LED, candles, whatever.
PAR watts - of all past measures and present this seems to be the closest to a measure of usable light quality from the plant's perspective. But we need to define the measure. Average? Center weighted? Something different, like how well it shines through your girlfriend's dress when she walks in front of the light? (This is my favorite, but don't think I'd buy a light based upon the results. Unless she kept walking by over & over. I bought a tent for that reason once ).
CCT / degrees Kelvin color spectrum

BTU's / heat generated
dB / sound generated (becoming less of an issue with COB's, but let's still ask for it in support of those who have an integrated LED system with cooling fans).​

So let me ramble again to clarify that "I don't know what it is but I'll know it when I see it":
A year or so back, MARS Hydro was

re-vamping their website, and one of their sales reps asked what kinds of info growers would like to see of their products. ​

Among other things I said PAR watts and color spectrum. To their credit, they did both. Here is their PAR watt spec:

​

And CCT / color spectrum, along with a simple, meaningful, easy-to-understand 2700-3000 degrees Kelvin statement that didn't reproduce when I copied this chart:

Looks impressive, but WTF... I'm not a lighting engineer and while I somewhat understand the references presented in these pictures, you could put an artistically talented 12 year old at the dining room table with a box of colored pencils to draw the same charts & I wouldn't know the difference. But if I go back to my trusty dusty "The Cannabis Grow Bible", copyright 2003, a 600watt Sunmaster Super HPS Deluxe bulb is listed at 85,000 initial lumens, 205 PAR Watts and "around" 2K CCT (2,000 degrees Kelvin color rating- in the "Olde School" days, granularity was in 1000's). If I understand the PAR Watts chart, a 2'X2' center footprint under that light would generate between 830 and 950 PAR Watts at the edges, and 1400PAR at dead center. No matter how I average that chart, a difference of 205PAR for the 600W HID and 830-950-1400PAR for a 325W LED is unbelievable. What's wrong with my (their) picture??? How do we get this to a meaningful comparable method? Point being, a numeric value derived by all vendors in the same fashion is better than a colored chart that doesn't tell my dumb ass anything. But keep the charts coming - please - we need those so our smart specialists can interpret the specs for us lighting challenged bozo's.
And CCT / color spectrum - how do I take a chart that shows LED's of 440nm, 630nm & 660 nanometers, and convert that to the vendor's spec of 2700k-3000k?

To MARS Hydro's credit, they provided everything I asked for. I just didn't ask for it properly, and we never established meaningful measures that all could adhere to. I have a good hunch, the reputable lighting vendors will step up, and the fly-by-night bullshit artists will go away.

Except for Maurice. He can't even grow toenails. Not even with LED lighting. Maybe COB's are the answer for him.

 

[Olde School Player]

We don’t buy lights to consume wattage. We buy lights to light plants.

I agree. We as a whole indoor gardening subculture need to just get watts out of the equation with leds. Plants don't see watts, watts don't really mean shit other than being one factor in its efficacy

Have to respectfully disagree, gents. While what you're saying is truth, you can't set up a grow room without a full understanding of the wattage of each piece of equipment. I'm still blushing over the time I helped a beginner design his attic layout; we had wattages down to the 15watt air pump. He never told me he only had 15amp circuits in his home. Day 1 T-5 mothers were fine. But guess what happened when he powered up for bloom mode???
And while I may not be a bonafide tree hugger, I am enough of an environmentalist in principle to want the most efficient equipment possible. But credit where due - we all wanna grow good weed.

 

[Olde School Player]

This is actually very true in terms of light angles and light spectrum. Different light meters are more or less sensitive to light coming from multiple angles, so that is an important thing to watch out for, especially in reflective grow areas....

It's a fun rabbit hole .... It's best to just test the LEDs with a "real plant" grow because theory about light can be argued for decades. We can learn to understand all the common mistakes manufacturers make when taking measurements and using that knowledge to identify the facts you want to see...

Your post was absolutely outstanding.
It tells me there are scientific measures that can be used to develop a standard by which all lighting vendors are held accountable. I'd hire you for the job. Now I'm going back to read it again. ​

But alas, the drawbacks to "real plant" grows are twofold. I can't wade through hundreds of grow journals to interpret the results of hundreds of growers, all using different lighting systems.
And then there's the wildcard / second drawback. Maurice.
He can't even grow toenails.
Not even with LED.

 

[BigSm0]

Have to respectfully disagree, gents. While what you're saying is truth, you can't set up a grow room without a full understanding of the wattage of each piece of equipment. I'm still blushing over the time I helped a beginner design his attic layout; we had wattages down to the 15watt air pump. He never told me he only had 15amp circuits in his home. Day 1 T-5 mothers were fine. But guess what happened when he powered up for bloom mode???
And while I may not be a bonafide tree hugger, I am enough of an environmentalist in principle to want the most efficient equipment possible. But credit where due - we all wanna grow good weed.

I should rephrase this then. Wattage is very important especially when designing a space or figuring items that will fit on a circuit. Besides the point something to remember is you should never go more than 70% it the circuits max rating. Which would be 1260 watts on a 15amp not 1800 watts or 1815 watts.

Our reference to wattage being meaningless had to do with light. Wattage is one factor when it comes to light output while most people think it is the only measurement to gauge light output. Like horsepower when figuring a quarter mile time. There are a lot more factors that make a car fast.

 

[Exotic Flower]

Was going to add a few thoughts, but I think everyone's covered it!
Yeah, bottom line, we want useful, clear and factual info!!

 

[Olde School Player]

I should rephrase this then. Wattage is very important especially when designing a space or figuring items that will fit on a circuit. Besides the point something to remember is you should never go more than 70% it the circuits max rating. Which would be 1260 watts on a 15amp not 1800 watts or 1815 watts.

Our reference to wattage being meaningless had to do with light. Wattage is one factor when it comes to light output while most people think it is the only measurement to gauge light output. Like horsepower when figuring a quarter mile time. There are a lot more factors that make a car fast.

I agree, there's so much more.

We must get away from the "watts equivalent" claims of so many fly-by-night vendors, which is a meaningless measure. W​

attage is a fundamental performance characteristic that's too important to be ignored, if for no other reason than to group lights into categories for the consumer - like a small - medium - large classification; and to design circuits (BTW, I use 80% circuit capacity but use measured peak startup wattage for each device).
In order for the small - medium - large classification to have any meaningful impact, we have to add a performance based measure

of usable light output ​

like PAR watts or lumens output (or both?), divided by (or into?) actual wattage consumed. Then we have a measurable efficiency rating by which all manufacturers can be compared & held accountable.
My problem is I don't have the technical background to define what those parameters are, and to specify a common measurement platform that will give fair and meaningful results for all lighting vendors. Let's get the technical engineering specs factored into how we measure, but have a results oriented factor published that the average consumer can understand. I think members like you and @The Green Sunshine Co. can evaluate those factors, gain consensus, and now we have something to present to lighting manufacturers that will be fair for them, and meaningful / usable by the consumer.

I want to be fair, but I want to ultimately hold manufacturers accountable to the Consumer for their products. Thanks for your comments!!!

 

[phunkyphenos413]

What he said, Plus a price that won't make guys on a budget like me go "F*ck that... I can get three chinese leds for half that price that'll meet those par ratings..."

I got 2 600wt philzon cheap LEDs. They work great quiet 2 fans on both in 4x4x80 tent temp is about 72 on veg 78 bloom I got 8 ladies in they're . 100$ a piece. Til I can afford better lights but these are doing great

 

[Dichoti]

I got 2 600wt philzon cheap LEDs. They work great quiet 2 fans on both in 4x4x80 tent temp is about 72 on veg 78 bloom I got 8 ladies in they're . 100$ a piece. Til I can afford better lights but these are doing great

I'm running a chinese "1000 watt" led, and "1800 watt" chinese 6x cob light, and my girls seem to be loving it.

These two take up 95% of the back half of my 4'x4' tent...
Temps usually stay around 80-83 in the tent after a 20/4 cycle.

 

[Alchemy]

How many 2 ft tall plants can a single light handle at flowering, and how dense does it grow nugs, is all I would ever need to know, it pretty much answers everything for me. Lol