Olderfart is in the infirmary again.

[Olderfart]

Having bugger all more to lose with the two problem plants, I have assumed that they are hungry and have upped the EC to ~1200EC, and will likely up it again before leaving the sad girls to their fate.

What swung me to hunger rather than lockout is a more careful look at the third plant now starting to show symptoms. I now see what I believe are early signs of both potassium and phosphorus deficiency, and suspect that my previous interpretation of tip burn may have been a result of the combination of both rather than N toxicity.

Accordingly, I have also started to raise EC in two the manually subirrigated plants. All considered, I now suspect that I have been starving them and never had either a lockout or pH problem at all. That will be confirmed, or refuted, by health, or lack of it, of the final two plants.

It would be nice to at least learn something from this cock up.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

This is a new schedule I am working from for the first time but it is similar to the one I ran for the photos just a lower overall PPM for the autos. As you can see I am running almost double what you are but I am in rock wool which are totally inert unlike your substrate?

 

[Olderfart]

In theory at least my SS#4 should be close to inert, at least a far as major nutrients are concerned, by the time the problems have been showing up. Other than a touch of dolomite to increase pH, and perlite to increase aeration, it is just peat - at least that is what the publications on it say. Major nutrients should be pretty much gone by week 4 or so, or so I would assume.

Anyway, I will assume until I see otherwise that starvation has been my problem all along. Bit disappointing that, but if true, my own fault for mis-interpreting the initial symptoms. I have been trying hard to not overload the autopots with nutes because there is no runoff to reduce salt buildup. It now seems to me that I have taken that a bit too far, to put it mildly. If getting the EC up higher earlier keeps the remaining two healthy, I will have learned something useful. If not, I will have learned a lot less, but maybe not nothing.

I enjoy learning, but doing it so much the hard way can be a tad off putting... Good thing I have nice weed left in the freezer from last winter.

 

[Olderfart]

@Mañ'O'Green and @Waira, I have posted an update including pics of the grow if you are interested:

https://www.autoflower.org/ubs/olde...10-update-both-good-news-and-not-so-good.901/

At this point, I have concluded that the problem from square one was starvation, not lockout or pH. What puzzles the hell out of me is where the tip burn came from. It was the tip burn that had me chasing this problem too long in the wrong directions.

In any case, thanks for your help with this, you guys are a real asset to this site.

 

[Waira]

@Waira, would you vote for still hungry? Part of me wonders whether the problem is that I have still not got them to a high enough EC for this stage, but if that is the case, why are they worse after I lifted the EC days ago? OTOH, if they are not hungry, lifting the EC higher may finally just kill them. I am at a loss as to how to keep these girls alive for several more weeks.

pardon OF, this got lost in the scrum....

Tip burn is a pretty general symptom, several things can cause it. Exactly where and the pattern of progression are clues to what's behind it; for example, with K it's typically right on the margin teeth initially, progressing to the whole margin and scattered spotting all over... nute burn often cooks tips and down the margin back...
I may have been remiss if I didn't ask you to try testing the run-off for both EC/ppm and pH, after using pure water (low-no ppm)... This is a vital clue about what kind of ion load is in there. You can have antagonistic uptake issues and not necessarily show much (if any) burn signs... Ca is notorious for this, because symptoms of Ca toxicity are not easily spotted directly per se, usually as other co-symptoms from the reduced/locked uptake for the Ca....
Factor in different cultivars tolerances and demands, and it's harder to call what too much and what isn't... MC is loaded with Ca, something they have upped twice that I can recall.
Still, I'm just speculating here... The ppm's have not been that low, or anywhere near starvation levels; consider what others are running MC and supp's at. But cumulatively the load in there may have tipped over the edge, and if you're not doing significant run-off, then this is a likely suspect still.
Also, a shitty batch could easily be behind this; all it takes is too much lime from a poorly mixed batch and the Ca shit-show is all but booked in!
Whatever is behind it, it's P that's getting shorted mainly...

If you're thinking of doing a flush, I'd use low ppm water and don't sweat the pH on that.... 1-3x pot volume, but check that run-off for ppm and pH a few times at least as you go. If you first ppm sample is over 1000/2.0EC, then I think you're in antagonistic uptake ranges there, and more feeds will make matters worse not better... I'd flush until the ppms are down to your basic feeds values have been, then feed a light dose on the final pout through. This will purge the excess, and help restore the balance of nutes in there as well.... You can speed drainage by setting the pots on paper towels and newspaper, which will wick the extra out nicely after they have drained well. This helps avaoid any root O2 starvation....
What can't see is what the roots are like. If they are, for some reason, in iffy shape, their performance is compromised which doubles down on the uptake problems...

Always happy to help my man, sorry we couldn't steer this outta the skid sooner!

 

[Olderfart]

pardon OF, this got lost in the scrum....

Tip burn is a pretty general symptom, several things can cause it. Exactly where and the pattern of progression are clues to what's behind it; for example, with K it's typically right on the margin teeth initially, progressing to the whole margin and scattered spotting all over... nute burn often cooks tips and down the margin back...
I may have been remiss if I didn't ask you to try testing the run-off for both EC/ppm and pH, after using pure water (low-no ppm)... This is a vital clue about what kind of ion load is in there. You can have antagonistic uptake issues and not necessarily show much (if any) burn signs... Ca is notorious for this, because symptoms of Ca toxicity are not easily spotted directly per se, usually as other co-symptoms from the reduced/locked uptake for the Ca....
Factor in different cultivars tolerances and demands, and it's harder to call what too much and what isn't... MC is loaded with Ca, something they have upped twice that I can recall.
Still, I'm just speculating here... The ppm's have not been that low, or anywhere near starvation levels; consider what others are running MC and supp's at. But cumulatively the load in there may have tipped over the edge, and if you're not doing significant run-off, then this is a likely suspect still.
Also, a shitty batch could easily be behind this; all it takes is too much lime from a poorly mixed batch and the Ca shit-show is all but booked in!
Whatever is behind it, it's P that's getting shorted mainly...

If you're thinking of doing a flush, I'd use low ppm water and don't sweat the pH on that.... 1-3x pot volume, but check that run-off for ppm and pH a few times at least as you go. If you first ppm sample is over 1000/2.0EC, then I think you're in antagonistic uptake ranges there, and more feeds will make matters worse not better... I'd flush until the ppms are down to your basic feeds values have been, then feed a light dose on the final pout through. This will purge the excess, and help restore the balance of nutes in there as well.... You can speed drainage by setting the pots on paper towels and newspaper, which will wick the extra out nicely after they have drained well. This helps avaoid any root O2 starvation....
What can't see is what the roots are like. If they are, for some reason, in iffy shape, their performance is compromised which doubles down on the uptake problems...

Always happy to help my man, sorry we couldn't steer this outta the skid sooner!

Thanks for the comments Waira, much appreciated. I flushed the problem plants more than once, and monitored the runoff. It was never more than ~1450EC (725ppm), and with one exception ( the first flush of Miss Cheesecake) was considerably lower, and pH was always on point throughout, usually ~6.2 - 6.3 or close to that. I am convinced that pH was not the problem. Who knows what imbalance might have been going on aside from that.

At any rate, the two sad girls are not getting worse, at least not to my eye now that I have upped the MC and deleted the BE, and the two younger plants seem to be stable for now in spite of Miss Northern Lights showing initial symptoms suggesting that she was heading down the same road. If the problem was imbalance, it seems to have been at least reduced for now, and if it was simple starvation, it also seems to have responded. Anyway, we shall see. If the two younger plants go the same way, which now seems less likely, I will know that the problem is some sort of imbalance lockout, maybe as you suggest some sort of screwup with Ca. Fingers and toes crossed...

Thanks again for chiming in, I appreciate your taking the time.

 

[Olderfart]

@Mañ'O'Green, you asked some time ago to see the roots of my problem Seedsmand Strawberry Cheesecake.

Here they are:

That is not the whole ball, I sliced half or so of it off before cleaning it out.

My observations are:

1. The root ball did not penetrate much into the bottom part of the medium, most root development was in the top two thirds or so of the pot. This was very different from the coco run in the same equipment - that root ball was by far the densest in the bottom quarter of the medium.

2. I smelled the medium profile top to bottom, and it all smelled sweet to me. All just a soil smell, it seemed perfectly fine to my nose.

3. I did see a couple decayed roots in the bottom of the medium, but it was impossible to know whether they were residue from failed roots of the girl or debris in the SS#4.

4. Don't know whether root nematodes are visible, but I looked carefully (no magnification) and could not see anything.


I have pretty much concluded that I initially starved them, and in the process of trying to correct that, managed to lock them out before symptoms had time to sort themselves out. I found the initial symptoms to be a dog's breakfast - some indicated possible hunger, others over feeding.

An educational grow...

Speaking of which @Waira, I believe that you mentioned a nute line somewhere in this infirmary mess of mine. Was it the PH Perfect Sensi coco line? I am thinking of going back to coco, and might be interested in that line if it comes highly recommended from you or another expert.

Another question for both of you, do either of you have any experience with Dr. Bruce Bugbee's peat mix (~50% peat/vermiculite, plus dolomite and gypsum). I am also thinking about that option, but I am concerned that it was intended for different water than I use, his being alkaline and hard, mine being extremely soft and neutral. His mix might also be more intended for photoperiod plants as the long release of the dolomite and gypsum may not suit the quicker turn around of autos.

Thanks for helping me try to sort this grow out. I did manage to get some nice bud of her in spite of nearly killing her:

Initial sampling was very tasty indeed.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@Mañ'O'Green, you asked some time ago to see the roots of my problem Seedsmand Strawberry Cheesecake.

Here they are:
View attachment 1286891

That is not the whole ball, I sliced half or so of it off before cleaning it out.

My observations are:

1. The root ball did not penetrate much into the bottom part of the medium, most root development was in the top two thirds or so of the pot. This was very different from the coco run in the same equipment - that root ball was by far the densest in the bottom quarter of the medium.

2. I smelled the medium profile top to bottom, and it all smelled sweet to me. All just a soil smell, it seemed perfectly fine to my nose.

3. I did see a couple decayed roots in the bottom of the medium, but it was impossible to know whether they were residue from failed roots of the girl or debris in the SS#4.

4. Don't know whether root nematodes are visible, but I looked carefully (no magnification) and could not see anything.


I have pretty much concluded that I initially starved them, and in the process of trying to correct that, managed to lock them out before symptoms had time to sort themselves out. I found the initial symptoms to be a dog's breakfast - some indicated possible hunger, others over feeding.

An educational grow...

Speaking of which @Waira, I believe that you mentioned a nute line somewhere in this infirmary mess of mine. Was it the PH Perfect Sensi coco line? I am thinking of going back to coco, and might be interested in that line if it comes highly recommended from you or another expert.

Another question for both of you, do either of you have any experience with Dr. Bruce Bugbee's peat mix (~50% peat/vermiculite, plus dolomite and gypsum). I am also thinking about that option, but I am concerned that it was intended for different water than I use, his being alkaline and hard, mine being extremely soft and neutral. His mix might also be more intended for photoperiod plants as the long release of the dolomite and gypsum may not suit the quicker turn around of autos.

Thanks for helping me try to sort this grow out. I did manage to get some nice bud of her in spite of nearly killing her:


View attachment 1286892

Initial sampling was very tasty indeed.

@Olderfart Thanks for sharing.

I do not see any root knot nematode damage or any current damage - rot. That said they do not look symmetrical but vary random. Just an observation. I don't think we will ever know what really happened?

Only working with our eyes and estimated inputs has serious limitations. I have gone over this file again and I want to give the most weight to @Waira with a bad batch of soil Ca toxicity from lime might explain the burnt (random) roots. Flushing would have carried the lime further down in the pot but not out. Maybe why the roots did not grow there? Anyhow just speculation.

What is not speculation is the Farmer in you got them to harvest and it looks good to me!

 

[Olderfart]

@Olderfart Thanks for sharing.

I do not see any root knot nematode damage or any current damage - rot. That said they do not look symmetrical but vary random. Just an observation. I don't think we will ever know what really happened?

Only working with our eyes and estimated inputs has serious limitations. I have gone over this file again and I want to give the most weight to @Waira with a bad batch of soil Ca toxicity from lime might explain the burnt (random) roots. Flushing would have carried the lime further down in the pot but not out. Maybe why the roots did not grow there? Anyhow just speculation.

What is not speculation is the Farmer in you got them to harvest and it looks good to me!

Oh, it is better than good! I can't believe to poor girl had it in her.

Thanks again for the help MOG, much appreciated.

 

[Waira]

OF my man, I see some fat and juicy nuggies all lined up nice! ... things weren't so bad after all (we see much worse!)...

Speaking of which @Waira, I believe that you mentioned a nute line somewhere in this infirmary mess of mine. Was it the PH Perfect Sensi coco line? I am thinking of going back to coco, and might be interested in that line if it comes highly recommended from you or another expert.

Another question for both of you, do either of you have any experience with Dr. Bruce Bugbee's peat mix (~50% peat/vermiculite, plus dolomite and gypsum). I am also thinking about that option, but I am concerned that it was intended for different water than I use, his being alkaline and hard, mine being extremely soft and neutral. His mix might also be more intended for photoperiod plants as the long release of the dolomite and gypsum may not suit the quicker turn around of autos.

I think it was Prescription Blend nutes which we tested last year and everybody was quite happy! It's a 6-part system that's very smartly broken up so that you can tinker with ratio's if needed, and use some of the parts as an excellent foliar feed... 1 or whined about the 6 parts but I told them my #1 complaint about simpler or 1-part stuff is the total lack of proper adjusting flexibility, that the shot-gun blast method to nutes is a real gamble for quality results... If a few minutes of one's time is so precious that it mandates such speedy feeding, you better be prepared to ride th learning curve hard on it's use, and the variable effects and results it has on different cultivars... I know some swear on GLN/MC, but I stopped using it for good reason and found Rx Blend superior across the board. MoG is dialing in the MC 2-part stuff, so he can advise better than I can about it's use details...
If you want simple, an option is a quality true soil and KIS Organics Nutrient pack. My last round of autos did great in it, even if a bit hot (my bad), nearly water only for reals! I still used recommended goodies like Si, humic-fulvic, kelp and/or a micronute supp' (always with me no matter what the line), and of course inoculant... A simple tea shot now and again as well to boost the soil herd which is KING in organics as you know,... Oh and i did tickle them with a little mild PK boost a couple times,just a butt covering reflex really-
All you have to do is mix it in and let it cook a couple weeks... pH held just fine, zero defc. issues, good fade at the end but much less than usual vs. other nutes... It is cheating a bit compared to the real Organic Mechanics like Hecno and Eyes of Fire (he uses some KIS too, still custom blends though), but for those of us looking for KISS organic growing, KIS is the best I have tried to date... He is here occasionally (Tad the owner), and the Rx Blend guy is around too...
He might even be willing to sponsor a grow! In fact, staff should reach out to him to see if he's cleared by the company for another round of gratis grow&show... Stand by on that, meantime, you can of course reach out to him here anyway... read up in their section too!