Olderfart is in the infirmary again.

[Mañ'O'Green]

:smoking: check that APTUS link, there's a great graph in there showing when and to what degree various nute elements are best applied,...high P is needed early-mid bloom, it tapers off pretty fast after that; K follower similarly after....
MC is a shotgun blast, that's the main problem. (Too much N for blooming too, IMO; nobody but nobody has such high N input content in their bloom stage formulations. I think it tends to leaf-up the buds more, seen in several comparison side-by-side grows, same cultivar too BTW)) ....There's a reason they have to tinker so much with the formulation, they are quite ambitious to attempt this one-part thing,... It "works", but there are caveats to be sure, and plenty of possible hitches when things don't go smoothly.... I know many will argue this, but after trying it myself for a few rounds, with 2 reformulations, and all I see around here and in Sick Bay, that's my conclusion....
..happy to help mate!

I totally agree that there really is no "great" one part salt based nutrient. I am using the 2 part GreenLeaf now and it is very versital. I am still learning how to use it but I think it is the way to go for salt. You need to add all of the Bio-stimulants as it has none. I kinda like that anyhow. You also need a low starting PPM water to be able to keep calcium from getting too high. I am finding 50 to 80 PPM is a good range.

 

[Olderfart]

@Mañ'O'Green and @Waira, for better or worse, I lifted the reservoir EC to 1050, and added some Raw monoammonium phosphate, probably to a ratio of about 10 -10-17 or so. When I went to the grow to do this, I had another look at the plants, and the two problem plants looked even worse. I think the two problem ones are starving, perhaps as well as out of balance. I left the Northern Lights on the reservoir for now, but took the younger CBD mom off. CBD will be manually sub-irrigated with ~750 EC until she shows signs of needing more. She is still clawing a bit at 750 EC due to the nutes in the SS#4 mix.

I will see how the three plants on the reservoir respond to the new mix, and plan on notching EC up further if I don't see signs of N toxicity in the new growth. Even 1050 EC is a lot lower than what GL suggests and lots of folks use at this stage but I don't want to hit them with too great a change at once. I will give them two or three days before upping the next notch.

I consider this grow, at least the two problem plants, to be a screwup because of Sunshine#4 - the transition from what is already in the mix (supposed to be damned little, but my plants seemed to think otherwise) to when nutes are required was a clusterfork due to mixed symptoms pointing in too many directions. I doubt that I will use it again. At least with coco you know what the plants are getting. I will get bud off the two problem plants, but not what they should have produced. Maybe I can get the other two on track before they are buggered up as badly.

Thanks for chiming in guys, you are a real asset to this site.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

It seems to me that many of the precharged soils have problems; whether it is the learning curve to use it or the quality control on the product is always the question. One thing for sure the plants know.

Keep us posted how this goes.

 

[Waira]

It seems to me that many of the precharged soils have problems; whether it is the learning curve to use it or the quality control on the product is always the question. One thing for sure the plants know.

Keep us posted how this goes.

Some "precharged" are for sure *cough KindSoil shit*cough, but all I can say after trying KindSoil, BioTabs, GBD's custom mix and KIS Organics, I'll be running KIS again over any synthetics or other "organic" system in the future- Cooking the soil is key for those products that are mix-in's.
The photo's outside this last year did the best I've ever had to date through late veg', put the MC to shame IMO.
The learning curve deal is true no matter what, and my mistake was gambling on those 10gal pots to last, even with top dressing... It's the trick, learning how to balance pot size with plant size and having enough nute reserve in the soil to last... bigger pots = bigger plants and that puts you right back in the corner again on depletion, plus I needed to keep them down to a certain size range... Next time, staged transplants will be the ticket; a little root squeeze to slow them down during veg', then into fresh soil/final pots for bloom...
The auto's, I guessed on the richness factor and didn't thin it out quite enough, but nothing detrimental and they finished clean, reasonably tapped out and bud:leaf was on point... End product came out stellar!

@Mañ'O'Green and @Waira, for better or worse, I lifted the reservoir EC to 1050, and added some Raw monoammonium phosphate, probably to a ratio of about 10 -10-17 or so. When I went to the grow to do this, I had another look at the plants, and the two problem plants looked even worse. I think the two problem ones are starving, perhaps as well as out of balance. I left the Northern Lights on the reservoir for now, but took the younger CBD mom off. CBD will be manually sub-irrigated with ~750 EC until she shows signs of needing more. She is still clawing a bit at 750 EC due to the nutes in the SS#4 mix.

I will see how the three plants on the reservoir respond to the new mix, and plan on notching EC up further if I don't see signs of N toxicity in the new growth. Even 1050 EC is a lot lower than what GL suggests and lots of folks use at this stage but I don't want to hit them with too great a change at once. I will give them two or three days before upping the next notch.

I consider this grow, at least the two problem plants, to be a screwup because of Sunshine#4 - the transition from what is already in the mix (supposed to be damned little, but my plants seemed to think otherwise) to when nutes are required was a clusterfork due to mixed symptoms pointing in too many directions. I doubt that I will use it again. At least with coco you know what the plants are getting. I will get bud off the two problem plants, but not what they should have produced. Maybe I can get the other two on track before they are buggered up as badly.

Thanks for chiming in guys, you are a real asset to this site.

Hmm, SS#4 and ProMix are pretty close in formulation, mostly just peat right? A dash of lime, perlite, some inoculant.... there are no nutes in there, peat is more barren than even coco I think? What signs did they show that made you think it's hotter than it should be?....Coco is another world regardless, as you know!
But funky batches happen, seems 2-3 grow mates I know run into this every year,... weird behavior, symptoms, usually unaccountable by what I could tell. Soon as they got new bales, different lot#'s, and the issue stopped. This may be what happened? One batch I recall was for sure overlimed, they could not for their life get the pH down to about 6.0! others did show what I suspect yours did, oddly looking like over'fert'ing....
Adjustments look good to me OF, plus the dash of RAW... Mainly it's a halting of progression we're looking for, but on the plus side the buds seem fine so far, not leafy, whimpy etc.,... ...those fans are doing their job!
I also found MC users often had micronute issues, something I have brought up to GLN twice now,... I've asked them about making a micronute supp' dry formula too = ... to date, my fav' is still Earth Juice Microblast, just micro's/secondary's, most sulfate based which is great! Well chelated too,... only gripe is it's a liquid, and less stable over time and O2 exposure....

 

[Olderfart]

It seems to me that many of the precharged soils have problems; whether it is the learning curve to use it or the quality control on the product is always the question. One thing for sure the plants know.

Keep us posted how this goes.

The least I can do.

I think you are spot on about the soil mixes, and I think I am done with them. I know that I could sort out the learning curve with SS#4, but the quality control issues I keep hearing about are a problem that I have no interest in dealing with again. I may try the organic thing one more time, but I may just stick with coco and learn how to make that work even better than it did for me the last time.

Anyway MOG, thanks for your help, and for your work here, both much appreciated.

 

[Olderfart]

Well @Waira and @Mañ'O'Green, you asked me to let you know how things went. Short answer is I have little clue, but here the girls are at 61 days, 5 days after I got rid of BE, and 4 days after nute EC raised to ~1000 (500ppm). They look worse, lots more eating of fans, further progress of deficiency/overfeed lockout elsewhere, generally light color of most fans. Saddest pair I have produced to date indoors or out.

Strawberry Cheesecake:

CDLC cross:

Sorry for the crap photos, but that is what I can do for the moment.

I think they are either still locked out or still hungry, I still can't decide which. These plants are over 60 days old, in so called soilless medium which should have been depleted weeks ago. OTOH, even the newest fans have burnt tips suggesting N toxicity in spite of the still low EC I am using when compared to most other MC grows. This clusterfork has been plagued by mixed symptoms for weeks, and it seems to not be getting better no matter what I do, At this rate, I will consider myself lucky if I can keep them alive long enough to mature whatever bud they are up to producing. OTOH, maybe this is them just winding things up. But the pistils say to me that I have weeks to go.

I put the Northern Lights and CBD mom on manual subirrigation at ~650EC and will keep them there unless they start to show signs of deficiency. As to the reservoir for the two problem plants, I haven't a bloody clue which way to move. Absent contrary advice, I may just keep it where it is as I find it abidingly unlikely that 1000EC should be a problem after my thorough flushing and at this stage in flowering. The good news, if there is any, is that the buds continue to fill out on both plants, so they haven't given up yet.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

Wow they do look worse? The damage may have been done already but I would expect to see some improvement with the flush and re-fertigation?

I don't know where to go from here? If we had a lab tissue samples would answer the questions.

 

[Olderfart]

Wow they do look worse? The damage may have been done already but I would expect to see some improvement with the flush and re-fertigation?

I don't know where to go from here? If we had a lab tissue samples would answer the questions.

I have no idea what to do next either. Neither direction EC wise makes sense of what these ladies have been up to. On one hand, current EC is low if not very low by the standards of both Greenleaf guidelines and other growers' experiences, so lockout after a thorough flush seems bloody odd to me. Further, if this is lockout, it must have started at even lower EC's, maybe as low as 750EC (325 ppm) which makes no sense at all to me, at least not with this so called "soilless" medium. But if they are still hungry, what is going on with the apparent nute burn combined with worsening symptoms after upping the EC?

I think my problems started with SS#4, and have become worse because I have been unable to interpret the dog's breakfast of symptoms right from the get go. I expect that I will never know, but my interest in another grow in this medium is low at the moment.

@Waira, would you vote for still hungry? Part of me wonders whether the problem is that I have still not got them to a high enough EC for this stage, but if that is the case, why are they worse after I lifted the EC days ago? OTOH, if they are not hungry, lifting the EC higher may finally just kill them. I am at a loss as to how to keep these girls alive for several more weeks.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

The whole plant is in decline like a pathogen or root nematodes. I wonder if you picked something up with the dirty snow? I have not seen a pothogen with this course but I have not seen all pathogens. With root nematodes you would expect more drooping?

When you harvest this plant I would be interested to see the roots.

 

[Olderfart]

The whole plant is in decline like a pathogen or root nematodes. I wonder if you picked something up with the dirty snow? I have not seen a pothogen with this course but I have not seen all pathogens. With root nematodes you would expect more drooping?

When you harvest this plant I would be interested to see the roots.

Well, it seems that the next plant in the line of different ages is starting in the same direction. It is being bottom fertigated manually with ~6-700 EC MC with a bit of extra P. Which is bloody low at only 350ppm. One of the big fans is starting to fade, but I see what I think is tip burn from too much N, and the plant looks plenty dark enough green to me. Is there something other than N toxicity that causes tip burn, particularly any kind of deficiency instead of too much N?

I have this nagging suspicion that if I misinterpreted the tip burn in the first place that I have been starving them to death.

As to the root nematodes and drooping, the CDLC cross has always been a drooper, so much so that I chased watering problems for a while, but watering is not the issue, it has been droopy from square one, and nothing changes it except drying it out until it droops more.

I will show you the roots when the ladies come down. Harvest may be an optimistic term.