De-Carb Needed for a Tincture: Yes or No

[olderthandirt]

Done as much reading as I care to do regarding how to make a tincture.
Methodologies, processes, the science behind them and now I'm at the point of needing someone help me sort out everything I've been reading.
Please!

I've a few fine tuning questions to be sure but the biggy just now is if de-carboxylation in the oven is actually required.

I keep seeing the old school "warm" recipes of soaking for 30 days or so rarely if ever call for an oven de-carb.
The ultra-cold or the heating forms of extraction most always do cite the need to de-carb prior to the soak.

Had me wondering if the THC-A was converting to THC in the "warm" process as a result of time in the alcohol.
Came across one, only one actually, site that specifically stated that the alcohol bath alone would accomplish the de-carb.

"THC, the active ingredient in all cannabis medication, exists as THCA until it is decarboxylated, usually through heat, into THC. The alcohol bath dissolves, decarboxylates and preserves the raw THCA into THC in lieu of heat."

I'm after a tincture for sublingual application.
Chronic back pain, depression.
Ethyl Alcohol as a solvent. As I'm in Oregon, Everclear is readily available.
I'd like to retain as much of the terpenes as possible while keeping chlorophyl extraction to a minimum.

So......
Does soaking in alcohol alone actually accomplish decarboxylation?

And.....
What methodology will best retain the terpenes as well as generate THC?

Thankee!

 

[Root]

Hi @olderthandirt

As far as I know, heat and age will decarb cannabis.
The tinctures I make with decarbed material produce a body and head high, while a tincture made with un-decarbed (?) material gives a body high without the head high.
That's been my experience, anyway.

Doing a water cure of your material will take most if not all chlorophyll out.
In my opinion the chlorophyll is beneficial to you so I don't usually water cure. Some people don't like the taste of the chlorophyll so I mix my tinctures with honey.
I Love the "old school" way...at least a 30 day soak, but the longer your material is in the alcohol, the more chlorophyll that is extracted.

Retaining terpenes and maximizing thc has to do with the heat in decarbing.
I use a pyrex glass pan covered with either a Turkey Oven bag or aluminum foil. Sealed so there is very little smell, if any.

Hope this helped.

 

[olderthandirt]

The voice of experience, perfect.

Help indeed @Root , thank you.

For this exercise I'm after the anti inflammation, pain relief aspects of THC rather than the high.
And again, so I can wrap me head around it, in doing a 30 day alcohol soak the THC-A in the cannabis will convert to THC?
As long as I'm willing to invest the time I can achieve the therapeutic benefits without the use of heat for a decarb?

 

[Root]

For this exercise I'm after the anti inflammation, pain relief aspects of THC rather than the high.
And again, so I can wrap me head around it, in doing a 30 day alcohol soak the THC-A in the cannabis will convert to THC?

The cannabinoids are extracted by the alcohol...weather they are decarbed or not, you will still get them in your tincture.
For me, 30 days is not long enough to make a quality tincture without a decarb. The flavor and potency (not necessarily a high) are better (without a decarb) the longer it soaks. I'm sure that is due to the natural decarb.

When my clients are interested in the benefits of cannabis, but not the high, I simply don't decarb. I usually work with fresh materials so I know aging doesn't play a part.
Decarboxylation
Posted by Skunk Pharm Research,LLC.

Cannabis produces phyto cannabinoids in a carboxylic acid form that are not orally active at least at the CB-1 receptor sites, because they don’t readily pass the blood brain barrier in their polar form.

To enable them to pass the blood brain barrier, they must first be decarboxylated, to remove the COOH carboxyl group of atoms, which exits in the form of H20 and CO2.

Decarboxylation occurs naturally with time and temperature, as a function of drying, but we can shorten the amount of time required considerably, by adding more heat. The more heat, the faster it occurs, within reasonable ranges, and in fact occurs spontaneously when the material is burned or vaporized.

There is another mechanism at play however, which suggests that we need to control the decarboxylation temperatures carefully.

When we heat cannabis to convert the THCA and CBDA into THC and CBD, we are also converting THC to CBN at a faster rate. At about 70% decarboxylation, we actually start converting THC to CBN at a faster rate than we are converting THCA to THC, so as you can see by the following graph, after about 70% decarboxylation, the levels of THC actually start to fall sharply.

That of course means that the CBN also begins to rise and the medication is becoming more sedative.

Thank you Jump 117 for this excellent graph!



Decarboxylation graph

Another fly in the ointment, is that we can never know for sure exactly what the starting state of decarboxylation is, so the times at temperature shown on the graphs are an average.

We can’t expect dry material placed in an oven at any given temperature to be that uniform temperature throughout instantly upon placing it in a heated oven, nor know for sure the state of decarboxylation by simple observation.

Decarboxylating plant material, also alters the taste (roasted/toasted), which some find less agreeable, and of course decarboxylating also evaporates away the smaller Monoterpenes and Sequiterpenes alcohols, phenols, ketones, aldehydes, ethers, and esters.

As long as I'm willing to invest the time I can achieve the therapeutic benefits without the use of heat for a decarb?

IMHO yes.
you will also get a tastier product.
There is so much unknown about the therapeutic benefits of cannabis...because we don't all have the proper testing equipment, so I can't tell you how much of the active cannabinoids you will get without decarbing and using the cold method. I can say that this method has been used for many years and what you do get out of it usually will help inflammation and pain.

Please keep us informed of your results.

 

[olderthandirt]

Skunk Pharm was one of the better sources of info for me. Go back to it regularly.

Last question for the now, fresh bud or dried and cured.
Which do you feel would better satisfy what I'm after.

I'm chopping a good sized Northern Lights in the next few days, will I be better served using the bud green or dried?

I've gotten mixed views, surprise right?, over which is better.
I'm of a mind that seeing as how dried and cured bud can be stored for a good bit of time that would allow me to make several smaller batches rather than one large one.

 

[Root]

I always dry and cure...for a couple reasons. Drying reduces water content and cured bud has a better taste.

 

[Eyes on Fire]

question @Root Hey you, good ta see yaz. i used a turkey cooking bag with a slit in the bag and it did not de carb fully. do you cut many holes or even close it? just curious.. Thanks!

 

[Root]

Hi @Eyes on Fire !
I completely seal the glass pan with aluminum foil and then seal the turkey bag (with a fancy clothes pen :smoking
I don't un seal it until it's completely cool. I"m not loosing any goodies to evaporation...better taste and quality into the final product.

 

[Eyes on Fire]

HUH! thats interesting,thanks! i might try that again down the road.

 

[olderthandirt]

I always dry and cure...for a couple reasons. Drying reduces water content and cured bud has a better taste.

Reinforced what I thought I understood. Thankee!

Hi @Eyes on Fire !
I completely seal the glass pan with aluminum foil and then seal the turkey bag (with a fancy clothes pen :smoking
I don't un seal it until it's completely cool. I"m not loosing any goodies to evaporation...better taste and quality into the final product.

This completely eludes me.
If the terpenes have "boiled" off, evaporated, how does covering the material while in the oven prevent it's loss?

So much to learn....

Ooh Ooh, that reminds me.
I'd been thinkin' that all the cannabinoids we're after are within the trichomes. Is that correct?