Communal Learning TLO thread

a really nice link to a rice wash feeding page and experiment this guy did. very nice :)

http://researchprojectricewater.blogspot.com/2011/05/outcome-rice-water.html


When rice is washed, the wash water becomes whitish due to the starchy powder in the skin of unwashed rice. I've often heard or read, usually in water-saving, money-saving, or gardening tips, that the water used to wash rice is beneficial for plants as it fertilizes the soil. There are also various anecdotes on the internet suggesting the use of rice water to water plants:
That's a cool little experiment. Thank you.

This is what I found. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=96325
I read the first, 20 and last 10, pages. It was really fascinating. Claims, from various icmag members, of ridding fungus gnats, Pm, Botrytis, even cat piss smell!

In a nutshell, he soaks rice.
Strains it.
Lets it ferment for a week.
adds milk to water @ 10:1.
Put it in the fridge for another week.
Collect serum floating on top.
Dilute serum with water @ 1:20.
 
well if your t rying to spray it,thats a whole different thing and thats a nice write up. But I only use the rice wash myself. made the molds and inoculates a cpl times in the past. I just dont have the ware with all to do much of that to be honest. I got enough on my plate.

I usually stay away from Icmag. I have seen some stuff thats real crap. but some stuff from taken else where or copied from someone else's work.

there are all kinds of killer things i would recommend spraying on your plants.especially outside.compost teas,kelp,life or bacteria bennie's. a host of thing you can spray each day almost.some do. i like spacing it over atleast twice in the morning and once mid day IF it can handle it mid day. if not.,nadda problem. LOL

i personally would follow Gils way. thats what I made. didnt have a problem.too much with smell but I only did a small bit.just to try it and see how it worked. simple. and easy as ya need it usually. bokashi too. worm farms. those four things including leaf mold would be excellent to get into. there are far more things you can make from simple items around the home too. really nifty stuff.


http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/
 
Is there a simple recipe for beginners, somewhere? I would like to try my next plant without mixing nutes. No rush, I won't be starting anything for a while.

Thanks alot EoF. After seeing your plants, I'm pumped to try...to be like you. lol
 
a simple recipe for the serum? i'll poke about to see if I have anything still. my laptop crashed twice this year. awesomely cool huh?! lol sure ill putz about for a bit tomorrow. but honestly ,Gil's methods imo are about as simple and complete as they come with this vid works well for an inoculate and a compost bin and there ya go. ya got stuff to spray,research Chitin,frass, crabshell. Bio war is a good all in one but expensive for purchase. but Soil [HASHTAG]#1[/HASHTAG] is a great inoculate to to add too either the GW or another Bio VAM which I have used too with solid success.
 
a simple recipe for the serum?
No I'm sorry, I meant a simple recipe for a soil. Tbh, idk what I would need. I guess a soil mix, then a tea recipe??? Seriously, don't trouble yourself. I'm not ready yet anyway.

That video was cool though. I will probably do that after winter. I'm in Northern Ma. It's gonna get coooold pretty soon
 
well yeah. from scratch. thats easy. you need. like and essentially five to six things covering the spectrums from NPK from a 2-2-2 or a 3-3-3 total perspective. a material for short N like blood meal and alfalfa meal. and then a cup of something like cotton seed meal which takes longer to break down and feed for a longer period of time. to that cover N. P is simple too,some high P guano and some bone meal.mostly meal though. then K, or go with a varying amount of each of a few things. like bone meal, an organic bloom granule with lower N like a 1 or a 2. organicare bloom granules have always done me right. then some kelp meals too,then compost and some bokashi and kick it with a tea and voila. that simple man. and to get started its roughly about a cup to a cup and a half to even 2 cups of most mellower Meals except blood usually. half cups of most guanos.bokashi 2 or 3 ,neem and kanja cakes about 2-4 depending,frass is like 1C. and on average many granules will come at about a strength used from 1'2 cup to about 1 cup. I would stay around 2/3 - 3/4 cup. steer compost is great, frsh worm castings right from the bin,leaf mold and bokashi all make for excellent inoculates.

so you say you wanna build a recipe easy and simple. well you can add few things. or have a more potent soil that'll have a good holding power and be able to be used a few times before she needs recharging if you will. but roughly when I was saying amounts and cups n stuff. I am referring to a mix of soil ,coco coir and perlite around 20-25 gallons. maybe more for the more cups method. but thats the size your looking for. so now its ,choose the items and compare to the recipes section. all depends on how involved you want to get. even simply can be a little rough at start man. like rock phosphates ,GRD(glacial rock dusts or ,azomite,elemite and similar things and kelp meal in a pinch,full of trace minerals) sand even for a texture improvment potentially. so simple and effective items but sometimes very necessary for a simple but complete mix.

here is the section I mentioned about the Revs mix being broken down into a state where its FAR FAR easier and easy to make in a simplistic format man.

post number one in this thread is excellent. the one below that about mid way down when the print changes is the Revs 2.1 recipe breakdown for a far simpler method.

https://www.autoflower.org/threads/building-a-healthy-soil.41139/

and this is the section on breaking it down. I use a half and half approach very similar to his breakdown when I build mine. thats why I say mine is always based around the revs mix and not thee exact mix. i have the stuffs so i add lots to my soil ,but thats very much not needed. standard NPK,life and short and medium degrading food. simple bro..


continued on next post :D
 
and here is the write up piece from that section on the revs brokendown organic mix.

[h=2]Dissecting the Rev Soil Mix Step by Step:[/h]After discussing organic growing indoors for so long, you start to come across a few things over and over again. I have a book on the shelf called TLO by the Rev. If you are reading this, then I’m guessing you have either read the book or have read his laundry list of a soil mix and were looking for more information on it. In my opinion, that book perpetuates many cultivation myths and then goes a step further and actually creates some myths of it’s own. Many of the amendments being used in the soil mix are ridiculous when you learn more. That’s why I wanted to list the entire list of ingredients and break it down line by line.
Please argue with me, I’m not writing this for my own good, but to create a conversation about where our amendments are coming from, and how we are growing our plants. My goal is to keep things as simple as possible, and to duplicate Mother Nature as much as I can while bringing organics indoors.
Base Mix:
2 gallons of quality organic soil mix
2 gallons thoroughly rinsed coir (coconut fiber)
2 gallons perlite(small nugget size)
2 gallons earthworm castings, and/or fresh compost works too)
While I don’t have a problem with the Base mix, I would be more specific here and do things differently.
1. What is the 2 gallons of soil look like?
2. Why Coco Coir? Check out this article from Utah State University on Peat Moss Vs. Coco coirhttp://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf[1]
(Although Leaf Mold would be Best, it takes 1 year to make at home and would be the way to eliminate all of this outsourcing)
3. Perlite Sucks – Seriously there are way better aeration amendments that don’t float around in the soil mix. Try lava rock, buckwheat hulls, rice hulls… the list goes on.
4. Hell Yes! I love Worm Castings and Compost.
This is what I recommend for a base mix, but think of it this way…. The base mix just has to have good humus and good aeration. Ideally you want the highest Cation Exchange Capacity possibly that way the soil will hold on to all the nutrients instead of letting them leach out with water. You can change the percentages and get almost the same results, but if you start to tweak things too much you will have a mix that is too heavy. You can grow in 100% worm castings, but the growth is slow with no aeration and too much compaction over time.
This base mix will perform very well and is also cheap to make.
30% Sphagnum Peat Moss or Home Made Leaf mold.
30% Homemade or Premium Worm Castings (Compost will suffice, but better be good compost)
25% Buckwheat hulls or Small Lava rock. Some form of aeration amendment. Perlite if you have to.
15% Topsoil – This will make it a real soil, and add clays that will increase Cation Exchange and also add a diverse amount of materials to the mix. I take a shovel and get some soil from a nice spot on my property, worst case you could find some good soil around town.
Or just straight 33/33/33 Peat/Compost/Aeration without the topsoil.
A note about Sphagnum Peat Moss: The Bales you buy at Home Depot in 2.0 Cubic Feet or 3.8 CF size are of a much higher quality than the sphagnum peat moss inside most of the bagged soil mixes you can buy. When you get bagged soil, they run the peat moss through a shredder, blender type deal and it gets really degraded. When you get a 3.8 CF bale from the store, you are getting something that hasn’t really been processed at all, just baled and shipped. It even has some micro life in it when you look at it under a microscope! Good Stuff!

Now for the fun part, all these crazy amendments, I’ll keep the list here and just go through it one by one.
Amendments according to the Rev 2.1 True Living Organics Soil mix.
1 and 1/2 cup Grow or Bloom "Pure" by Organicare (or 1 cup 5-5-5) Here are the ingredients for the Organicare: Fish meal, crab meal, sulfate of potash, alfalfa meal, composted poultry litter and seaweed (Ascophyllum nodosum). Why not just add these separate ingredients yourself at a known ratio and with your own personal quality control? Why are we using expensive bagged products along side with similar stand alone amendements? This makes no sense.
1/2 cup greensand Greensand takes Years to become available, if this is part of your really long term plan, that’s fine. This could be an initial amendment for starting a No-Till. There are other mineral amendments that will make themselves available to the plants faster. My goal when building a soil is not to waste money, and I would cut this out for sure.... but really see no harm in using it.
3/4 cup ground oyster shells (1 cup if no crushed oyster shells) Oyster Shells are about 95% CaCO3 or Calcium Carbonate. Once you realize that calcium carbonate is good, you can add it without having to be redundant. Gypsum, Crab, Oyster, they all have CaCO3 1cup crushed oyster shells (optional) Read the above.
1/2 cup dolomite lime (powdered) NO DOLOMITE LIME: As a rule, don’t use Dolomite lime, regardless of what you may have read in various gardening books, unless you are sure that you need Magnesium. (We don’t need any more magnesium in our mix, I promise) Dolomite is a high Magnesium limestone. Using dolomite will tighten the soil, reducing air in the soil and inducing anaerobic alcohol fermentation or even formaldehyde preservation of organic matter rather than aerobic decomposition. 1 and 3/4 cup prilled (pelletized) fast-acting dolomite lime Again, No Dolomite, it’s awful for your soil, especially with the alternatives available like gypsum.
1/4 cup blood meal Blood Meal: There are way better sources of Nitrogen than this. Blood meal is the blood waste from the cattle industry, Are you 100% confident that all the blood being used is free of any drugs, hormones, toxins etc? I'm not, and it turns out there is good reason to question the industry practice. Blood meal is made from dried blood that is literally scraped from the slaughterhouse floor. Even those farmers that use it admit that it is dangerous to breathe and can carry a number of harmful pathogens. Warning for animal lovers: Blood meal may attract your pets or other animals and if ingested can cause vomiting and diarrhea. Ingesting blood meal can also result in severe pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas) which is bad news for your pup.
1/4 cup high N bird/bat guano 12-8-2 N-P-K Bat guano is bad to breathe, and isn’t sustainable to harvest. It’s also not magic like the hippies of yesterday seem to think it was. There are many alternatives to Bat Guano, but I understand many people still use it and love won’t grow without it. That is a personal decision you have to make. Personally, I’ve found that Comfrey, SRP, and many others are better and less dangerous to use.
1/2 heaping cup feather meal
Antibiotics and other drugs found in feather meal samples. That should be enough to show you how convoluted the feather meal industry is. This is another waster product from slaughtering animals. Here is a quote from an article sited below: "To do this, they examined 12 feather meal samples from the U.S. (n=10) and China (n=2). All 12 samples contained at least one antibiotic residue, and some contained residues of 10 different drugs (both of those were from China). While many of the antibiotics were ones used in poultry farming (or their metabolites), they also found drugs they did not expect. Most significantly, this included residues of fluoroquinolones, which they found in 6 of 10 U.S. feather meal samples. Why is this important? Fluoroquinolone use was banned in U.S. poultry production as of 2005 because of the risk to human health–so where are these residues coming from?" Source:http://scienceblogs.com/aetiology/2012/04/05/waste-not-want-not-poultry-fea/
1 cup un-steamed granular bone meal (like Whitney Farms brand)
Why not use Fish bone meal, comfrey, soft rock phosphate or something better than bone meal? Bones are stripped, dried, and ground. It is used for its high phosphorus and calcium content despite the fact that bone meal is dangerous to breathe and has been suggested as an agent for spreading Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) (the human form of bovine spongiform encephalopathy “mad cow disease”) to humans. “Do you feed your roses with bone meal? Not a good idea, says the world’s foremost expert on a group of rare diseases, found in animals, that sometimes make their way into humans. Breathing in the dust from contaminated bone meal could be deadly, says Dr. D. Carleton Gajdusek (GUY-doo-sheck), a brilliant Harvard Medical School graduate and Nobel laureate. In his latest book, Deadly Feasts (Simon & Schuster), author Richard Rhodes traces the history of these diseases, called spongi-form encephalopathies, that reduce the brain to a spongy mass, causing their victims to stagger, fall, develop dementia and paralysis, and soon die a terrible death.” - “Mad cow disease” from feeding your roses? – Medical Update September 1, 1997. Brown, Edwin W. Bone Meal can also be a danger to your pets. If an animal consumes a large quantity of bone meal (for their size) it will form a cement-like ball in their stomach, which may block the digestive track and need to be removed by surgery. http://gentleworld.org/whats-hiding-in-your-organic-fertilizer/
1/2 cup bulb food
WTF? Why are we adding chemical fertilizers now? Okay, so someone said he uses an organic bulb food. (I looked it up, it's just more of all the above)
1/4 cup powdered soft rock phosphate Good good, but ¼ cup for more than 1 cubic foot of soil? I don’t think that’s enough!
(Also, SRP does contain heavy metals, please use to start your mix but don't start going crazy with it)
1/2 heaping cup powdered gypsum Finally, this makes some good sense… but again, not enough, it should be about 4 cups!
1/2 cup kelp meal Awesome! Kelp Meal is incredible.
4 heaping cups composted steer manure (this inoculates your mix with specialized microbeasties and primo organic matter) Manure? Really? We can get said “microbeasties” without that crap. If this manure hasn’t been composted properly it still has residual amounts of antibiotics etc in it.
1/2 cup azomite granular (add an additional 1/4 cup of greensand if no azomite) Azomite I’m fine with. Good source of minerals, but don’t stress if you can’t get it easy, no need.
1 cup granular humic acid ore (such as Down to Earth brand) Humic Acids are NOT all created equal. I prefer Liquid Ful-Power. It is 10 times better. Read this interesting write up on the Humic industry. There is SOOO much bullshit being sold as “humic acid” it’s ridiculous. Please read this entire article before buying any!http://www.bioag.com/educationandresources.html
1 cup alfalfa meal (or 2 cups pellets- make sure pellets are all organic no additives) I love Alfalfa Meal! With all the other stuff going on in this mix I would cut it to ½ cup. Or leave it out of the mix and use it for making botanical teas with.
1/2 cup rock phosphate granular (optional) Soft Rock Phosphate is better. This won’t be as available and also may have slightly more heavy metals etc.
1 heaping cup organic rice (important for the good fungi in this soil mix) First the rice will absorb water, then rot and while rotting it’s going to take up N to compensate for the use of carbon. Eventually it will turn into something useful but it would be better to use the rice for making BIM cultures and then adding that to the mix. It just doesn’t make sense to add it to the mix directly. (Thanks to JayKush for this comment in my notes)
For what it’s worth, if anyone wants to discuss the ridiculous use of spikes and layers along with god awful “Nutrient Teas” that make absolutely no sense…. Than we can talk about that stuff too. But be prepared, because there is nor reason to shove spikes into the soil or to use even more nutrients in these crazy tea concoctions with doses of calmag etc.
Here is what I would use for amendments to keep it simple:
Neem Cake ½ cup per cubic foot.
Sea Kelp Meal ½ cup per cubic foot.
Crustacean Meal ½ cup per cubic foot.
Mineral Mix 4-5 cups per cubic foot.
Comfrey Leaf – Handful top dressed and then covered with worm castings.
Once in the container, mulch with straw or with a living mulch like clover.
Ideally, you can process your homemade worm castings with these ingredients and when the castings are ready for use, that will be all you have to add…. Not anything else! That would be really cool.
TL;DR
The Rev Mix isn't good and is too complicated. Understanding how to build a soil can be simple.
You only need good compost or worm castings and a few good soil amendments covering the NPK range. Add to that a complete lineup of minerals and you are done. You can source whatever is best locally and you don't have to use ANY set recipe. Just make sure you have Compost, Nutrients and Minerals. The part where people fail, is keeping the soil alive and full of microbes that can actually proccess the added minerals and nutrients fast enough to keep up with the plant. That is where the compost and/or compost tea comes in.
 
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