As a grower, how do you deal with incoherent/wacky state laws covering growing and possession?

[MidIN2]

I'm in the reddest of the red states, and we make it happen, if CVS can sling it then I can smoke it in my home is how I see it.
Plant counts it seems like a waste of worry unless a friend isn't so friendly and turned you in, even then that seems petty to even try to fine or arrest for, unless like a Walmarts worth of crop.
But that's me. As long as there are over priced dispensary fees and etc around my state, the home growers still have a chance.

 

[Bill.de.Cat]

Well, if they do not have a warrant and there are no exigent circumstances, Then yes, any evidence that they find could be suppressed once you reach trial.

And that's why you pull out your phone and video police in any encounter you have with them! And you must give them a friendly reminder to them that they will lose their qualified immunity if they pursue matters further. Knowing a few case law precedents pertinent to your federal court region, will only bolster your case and make them think twice before they violate your constitutional rights. Now, if you have a real stupid officer, He may just complicate things and go ahead and proceed with what he had planned. It's definitely best to try to quash things at that moment, rather than deal with the courts.

That's why fencing, locked gate and no trespassing signs are your best defense against unwanted intrusions by anyone. Most cops are just too damn lazy to pursue something that might be a bit difficult.

Speaking on the exigent circumstances, one avenue where they could gain access to your property without a warrant could be a "welfare check". When I had that tree that decided it wanted to visit my living room, I had a bit of a emotional crisis to develop , so I called the Veterans Crisis Hotline to talk things out. The person on the other end I'm sure had well intentions, but she started to talk about a welfare check. The next 10 to 15 minutes, not working on the problem that I had, but trying to convince this person that sending men with guns it's just not in my best interest! There are multitudes of examples where law enforcement go to do a welfare check on someone and they end up killing that person! After getting nowhere with this person, I requested to speak with their supervisor. Luckily I got someone with a semblance of intelligence that I could converse with. I explained to the supervisor that sending someone of supposed authority to a residence of a veteran that more that more than likely feels that government has not treated them fairly, is just an invite to a conflict and not conducive to solving the problem. It should be an option of last resort when the veteran person is plainly in crisis and actually needs real help.

I evidently got my point across to the supervisor and did not have no jackbooted Nazi come and visit my home late at night. Still didn't let me sleep any with that possibility hanging over my head!

And I could go into how law enforcement needs to hire more intelligent people and how qualified immunity needs to be abolished, but that would take hours to go into!

And there in lies part of the problem, no matter how egregious the violation they automatically get QI in the first trial. You have to pony up more time, effort and money to appeal where you might actually get a fair shake and they lose their QI. Can't remember which paper I read but it was 100% QI in the first trial. And they know it and exploit it.

 

[Bill.de.Cat]

I'm in the reddest of the red states, and we make it happen, if CVS can sling it then I can smoke it in my home is how I see it.
Plant counts it seems like a waste of worry unless a friend isn't so friendly and turned you in, even then that seems petty to even try to fine or arrest for, unless like a Walmarts worth of crop.
But that's me. As long as there are over priced dispensary fees and etc around my state, the home growers still have a chance.

As a grower small time supplier I'm still pushing for legalization. At that point I'll take a trip to check their prices to see if I need to adjust. seeing asit's 40 miles to the closest dispo, I've already got a + on my side.

 

[MidIN2]

As a grower small time supplier I'm still pushing for legalization. At that point I'll take a trip to check their prices to see if I need to adjust. seeing asit's 40 miles to the closest dispo, I've already got a + on my side.

Im for mom and pop dispensary, rather show case my own then someone else doing it, on the store front side that is. Word of mouth will always sell better than flashy signs where I'm from. I do use neighbor states dispensaries to compare my products with. The state to my west runs a lot of ethos genetics and so do I. So far honestly I would put mine against them anyway. I also use them to try new genetics , grab a 1/8 for the price of seeds, if it's good then I order the genetics

 

[Bill.de.Cat]

Im for mom and pop dispensary, rather show case my own then someone else doing it, on the store front side that is. Word of mouth will always sell better than flashy signs where I'm from. I do use neighbor states dispensaries to compare my products with. The state to my west runs a lot of ethos genetics and so do I. So far honestly I would put mine against them anyway. I also use them to try new genetics , grab a 1/8 for the price of seeds, if it's good then I order the genetics

I've had 2 med customers come back to buying mine after adding up the actual costs and the fact that one of them got moldy bud that the clerk told her it was the trichrome frosting...all it took was a magnifying glass to show her the fuzziness.

 

[WildBill]

But does lecturing, threatening police with legal action, filming them, citing constitutional rights, etc. actually work; not often result in needless escalation? These are overt actions criminals (growers) with something to hide should not be doing. I presume you live in a rural area in a Western state(?). Do local judges actually let off drug manufacturers caught in the act because of whining about trespassing, such as if police jumped a fence to knock on your door to ask about something and from there somehow (such as because it was not out of sight) you ended up busted for growing?

And why take such adversarial and confrontation-risking attitudes when police coming around without a warrant most likely just want your assistance with some other community policing matter? To me, refusing entry and locking yourself in adds risk of a stand-off or confrontation (call in the SWAT team), makes them suspect (rightly) that you are hiding something criminal, etc. Do you at least put your phone number on trespass signs so police, firemen, electricity meter readers, your neighbors, etc. can call you, ask for you to come out and talk or let them in, or just totally deal with their interest over the phone?

You'd probably make a pretty good cop! I'm joking, but that is kind of the mindset that police have.


You are correct that when you confront cops that are trying to violate your constitutional rights and you stand up to them when they are trying to violate your constitutional rights, they always think about what do you have to hide.

If you don't stand up for your rights, the cops sure as hell will not! That's what they are supposed to do, but that's not really the case most of the time.

I think you're missing the point. And that's perfectly understandable, since you are not an American citizen.

That's why we fought the American Revolution against the most powerful nation in the entire world at the time, the British Empire.

Our Constitution is a bit different. Our founding fathers State that our rights are Inalienable Rights****** given by God.
Our Constitution does not give the citizens their rights, it restricts what the government can do to and with the citizens.
At least that is the way it is supposed to work!!



Inalienable Rights****** Personal rights held by an individual which are not bestowed by law, custom, or belief, and which cannot be taken or given away, or transferred to another person, are referred to as “inalienable rights.” The U.S. Constitution recognized that certain universal rights cannot be taken away by legislation, as they are beyond the control of a government, being naturally given to every individual at birth, and that these rights are retained throughout life.

 

[WildBill]

And there in lies part of the problem, no matter how egregious the violation they automatically get QI in the first trial. You have to pony up more time, effort and money to appeal where you might actually get a fair shake and they lose their QI. Can't remember which paper I read but it was 100% QI in the first trial. And they know it and exploit it.

First of all, before you can strip them of their qualified immunity, which is civil, you have beat the criminal case.

It's pretty easy to get them stripped of qualified immunity if there is case law. The problem comes in that the case law must be in your federal district and must be pretty similar to your actual case.

Let's give a common example of filming the police. In every federal district there is many examples of case law that has backed up the rights of citizens to photograph police and government employees, in performance of their governmental roles. It should be common knowledge by all law enforcement that citizens are allowed to film them in their daily duties. So as long as you are not physically interfering with them doing their duties, then you should be fine and they should leave you the hell alone. In some states, the legislature has tried to enact restrictions on how close you can be, but the Supreme Court has shot that down in every single case.

 

[BII]

@WildBill: As you note, we have different mind sets, perspectives, and likely geography (rural Wild West vs. Eastern suburbs); recreational vs. patient user, happy retiree vs. perhaps gov't-abused veteran; in my view police protect me; I don't think cops are out to violate my rights when they enter my property vs. just want to quickly get done what they came to do; etc. [I don't understand the "you are not an American citizen" part. I'm born and raised in NJ, lived in MD for 5 decades].

I think growers, also usually dealers (whether gifting or selling), of sufficient scale need to realize they are outlaws/criminals (violating state and federal laws) and act accordingly in a related professional manner (as good spies also do). Here the goal of routine encounters with law enforcement is to not make yourself a target, not give them a reason to even remember you. Standing up to cops who in all likelihood just have some petty routine need to talk to you - why do it, what is gained? Nowadays, you even risk getting killed. I say just be normal sociable, help them with what they need and get them on their way.

I think keeping a low profile, being cooperative, more collected/rational than the police, not getting confrontational and huffy about 'rights,' even being hospitable (as I noted, you should even be able to invite police into your reception or living room), is much better for survival. Do you really think your approach is less risky than this? You may feel a need to be antagonistic, may even hate police, but just act normal (even if you have to fake it). Make sure your growing area is locked off such that they need a warrant to enter.

 

[WildBill]

@WildBill: As you note, we have different mind sets, perspectives, and likely geography (rural Wild West vs. Eastern suburbs); recreational vs. patient user, happy retiree vs. perhaps gov't-abused veteran; in my view police protect me; I don't think cops are out to violate my rights when they enter my property vs. just want to quickly get done what they came to do; etc. [I don't understand the "you are not an American citizen" part. I'm born and raised in NJ, lived in MD for 5 decades].

I think growers, also usually dealers (whether gifting or selling), of sufficient scale need to realize they are outlaws/criminals (violating state and federal laws) and act accordingly in a related professional manner (as good spies also do). Here the goal of routine encounters with law enforcement is to not make yourself a target, not give them a reason to even remember you. Standing up to cops who in all likelihood just have some petty routine need to talk to you - why do it, what is gained? Nowadays, you even risk getting killed. I say just be normal sociable, help them with what they need and get them on their way.

I think keeping a low profile, being cooperative, more collected/rational than the police, not getting confrontational and huffy about 'rights,' even being hospitable (as I noted, you should even be able to invite police into your reception or living room), is much better for survival. Do you really think your approach is less risky than this? You may feel a need to be antagonistic, may even hate police, but just act normal (even if you have to fake it). Make sure your growing area is locked off such that they need a warrant to enter.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I'm not anti cop. I am anti-bad cop.

One of my extremely good friends is a Texas Highway Patrolman. If all cops were like him, We wouldn't be having this conversation! He is a retired Marine Gunny Sergeant. With as many times as the man took The Oath to defend the Constitution, It's something near and dear to his heart and he would never intentionally or knowingly violate anyones rights. And he is a 'good cop' in the aspect that he will not stand by and watch other officers violate any ones rights.

There is a saying out there, ”Back the Blue until it happens to you!" Basically, all I'm saying is that you need to be 'prepared' in case you have an encounter with law enforcement.

Knowing what your rights are is paramount! Cops will push the issue, knowingly or not. Some push the issue out of ego and some push the issue out of ignorance of the law.

Having posted signs and being registered is mainly protection against other people, not necessarily against law enforcement. In both cases, it offers protection after the fact in court.

I'm a very easygoing guy for the most part. I try to do good and I do try to help people when and where I can. The one thing I will not tolerate in this life is someone violating the rights that I put my ass on the line for while in the military. Like other men and women in the military, I did sacrifice quite a bit to serve my country. I'm not special, everybody else in the military also gave up things in their life.

Like a lot of veterans, I highly value my privacy! In the military, you have very little of that!
And that's exactly why I don't live in the city! I'm not dealing with all the rules and regulations of living in the city and then there's all these nosy neighbors. And that's the same reason why I'm not in an HOA. No one's gonna tell me what to do with my property. No one is coming on my property without my consent and that happens to include law enforcement. If they do not have a warrant, it's just not going to happen. Not there to help you!

And let's face it, we all are a product of our upbringing. I think my parents raised me quite well until about the age of 15. And at that age I bought my first car with my own money and had a regular job. I still abided by the rules of the household of my Father and Mother, but I was in control of the direction of my life. And that changed when I joined the military. They finished raising me and changed me into what they wanted me to be. And like it or not, I just cannot escape that fact in that upbringing! Most is actually for the good, but there are quite a few idiosyncrasies that I just cannot get away from.

Basically, all I'm saying is that you need to be prepared in many ways in case you have an encounter with law enforcement that does not know or is not willing to abide by the actual law. Only you are going to stand up for your rights when law enforcement tries to violate them. You have to know what your rights are and how the cops will try to violate them and try to skirt the law to get what they want.

II have had a few encounters with law enforcement when they did try to violate my rights. Keyword is try! I was visiting my son in Mississippi and we went out to go buy some beer and wine early one evening. At the time I had a highly modified F250 truck that my boy just loved, so I let him drive. So in route to this closest liquor store, we encountered an illegal license check by the county. This style of stuff has been ruled by the Supreme Court as being illegal in its manner, yet Mississippi at that time still held them. No big deal! My boy handed him his license and my insurance card. During the check, the officer started asking my son all sorts of stupid questions. At the same time an officer came round to my window, which was partially rolled down, and asked me for my ID. I told him I'm not driving and I'm not required to show him any identification, unless he thought I have committed a crime, am committing a crime or am I about to commit a crime. The idiot at my sons window kept asking stupid questions , so I told him you don't have to answer any of those questions. I ignored the idiot at my window and told the other one that we would like to go and be about our way, so just check the driver's license and insurance! I told both the officers that I am evoking my 5th Amendment right and will not be answering any questions without a lawyer present and told my son to do the same. After my son said his line, I asked the officers are we free to go? The idiot at my window asks for my ID again and I gave him the same reply and evoked my 5th again. To make long story short, they finally let us go. They sure as hell didn't like it that's for sure.
It was the principal of the thing. I didn't know if these were bad cops or just poorly trained cops.
Now the last encounter I had with a law enforcement officer, that I found out later was actually a bad cop, was in front of my home on the highway. We had a bad storm and it knocked down a large tree across the highway completely covering one lane and into another. It was right at the edge of My property. I called 911 and reported it and so did my neighbor. The speed limit there is 70 miles an hour and it is on a fairly blind curve from run one direction. He and his wife and I got out and started directing traffic. It's 15 minutes later and we have no one on scene yet. His wife calls again. The 911 operator was extremely disrespectful and hung up on his wife. The dispatcher said you'll have to wait and hung up. I didn't know about this at the time and I called also and got the exact same treatment.
Luckily traffic was relatively light, but the situation was still extremely dangerous. No sooner after I got off the phone with the dispatcher, and 18 Wheeler coming up on the blind curve with the tree laying in its path. I'm pretty sure that truck driver had to change his underwear at his next stop! That man pulled off a maneuver! That's when my neighbor and I decided that we need to take control of the situation! He got his wife stationed to slow down traffic further up the highway. I grabbed my truck in large chain and my neighbor wrapped it around the trunk and I pulled it off the side of the highway into the grass. That was a really big tree!

When the deputy arrived he parked in front of my home. I was cordial when I went out to meet him and I wanted to complain about the 911 dispatcher hanging up on two citizens. He immediately got defensive and started issuing orders.
Let us put it this way, there were definitely words exchanged and I voiced my opinion of his conduct and actions along with the 911 dispatchers conduct. Needless to say the inner sailor came out and he got quite a taste of "Mom, please pass the fucking salt." At the time I was giving him his little taste, I was on the phone to the sheriff's office. I actually got this got the sheriff on the line. Once I got the sheriff on the line I told the deputy to shush i'm talking to your boss!He really didn't care for that!The sheriff got an ear full of what his deputy was saying and then I began to tell the sheriff what had occurred leading up to this idiot coming here and acting like a jackboot Nazi. That sheriff was actually a pretty damn good guy and definitely did not tolerate that type of conduct from his men.
It wasn't a week later that this same deputy sicked his canine dog on a handcuffed man! A quite textbook case of misuse of force! I don't think he was arrested at the time, but he was fired the next day. I do have to hand the sheriff props for that! It was only two weeks later he was brought up on federal charges for excessive force. He's in prison now.

It's out there and it happens and you need to be prepared.

 

[BII]

To me, the rights violations you cite seem trivial, definitely not worth giving police a hard time, not worth risking your son getting drawn into a confrontation, etc. For me, if a cop asks stupid questions, that's harmless (to me), a proven way of eliciting more genuine (vs. faked) responses from someone, determining if they are inebriated or not, see how stressed they are. Isn't this tactic totally common when going through Customs? Just give smart thoughtful answers (or non-answers). And if they want ID (even if they shouldn't), what's the big deal, what's the harm, etc.?

Your goal (may not be what you want to do) is to get through the encounter with minimal negative and stress vibes on your part, much less taking an attitude, surely extending the encounter. It's not like they entered much less searched your vehicle, made you get out, patted you down, confiscated anything, had you pull over and wait for a canine team to come check your vehicle, etc. - that's when you start citing your rights.

In terms of the 911 staff, with the "bad storm" they were likely handling 10s or 100s of calls, many with more dire situations than yours (injuries, power lines down, etc.), and as you noted, they received repeat calls for this same problem. So to some extent (in context of the emergency) they may have been right to cut you off.

And you need to keep in mind, those at the traffic stop were perfectly right about questioning you (because with your very impressive grow operation you are a drug manufacturer, and with gifting to veteran patients you are a dealer). Their 'spider sense' was right, they could probably tell right off from your attitude, responses, body language, etc. that you have something criminal to hide.

Like I said, growers at a certain scale need to act like professional criminals, including calmly evading, not needlessly initiating or escalating, confrontations with law enforcement.