As a grower, how do you deal with incoherent/wacky state laws covering growing and possession?

[WildBill]

We have a cannabis swapmeet in San Diego! Pretty sure its weekly. Its run by a group of local growers and usually the best prices and quality. Plus youll find more unique strains to choose from than the standard Cookies, Cake, and OG’s that flood the dispos around here. Local glass blowers have their work for sale and theres usually a dab station or two and the selection is always huge compared to the dispos. Its not legal in any way, is advertised by word of mouth, and moves locations regularly. We also have huge grow conventions at the local Scottish Rite’s Masonic Temple two or three times a year, no canna there, but all the new grow tech and nutrient samples and everything related to growing is there. Been to a couple of those, theyre pretty fun and you usually go home with enough samples for a few grows lol. I love seeing the huge expensive all in one modular grow inventions. They look like medical machines and always have a unique or novel approach to growing canna in smaller spaces. .

I used to love roaming the swap meets there in San Diego! I was there for mainly automotive stuff! You could actually find pretty good deals back in the early 80s! My little one-bedroom apartment up in Paradise Valley was under $300 a month! Just above a few blocks away from the naval housing up in that area.

That's The attitude that should be about cannabis. It's just a damn plant! It's a plant that makes medicine. If the plant that makes medicine that you're not going to OD on!

 

[BII]

The ones i know that got a day a pound were caught transporting amd i didnt ask the specifics of their charges. Searching thru endless misinformation gets hard to know whats right and real.

Transport of bulk is most likely prosecuted as dealing/selling, not simply growing too much.

 

[JP1]

In the garden state homegrow is illegal completely but we're fully legal recreationally for 21+. Although it seems like home growers are getting probation now instead of time since they've legalized recreationally. We're allowed to possess 6oz of flower any time and gift up to 1oz. Cops here aren't even allowed to ask minors if they have weed on them. Searching of minors for weed is actually illegal here right now. Crazy laws

 

[Son of Hobbes]

It sounds like the CO growers you're familiar with are not very sophisticated.

Sophistication unfortunately has nothing to do with it; it's all about the $ and the willingness of the owner(s) or investors to spend money or to trust the people they have working for them to make the right decisions (which the turns into "well how much will this cost?"

In my experience, most grow owners are not growers, they are just the money. Every single grow I have worked for has a barn, room, conex, etc, absolutely full of all the failed equipment the grower before them suggested buying, or it was the initial setup for the grow that was just cheap, shitty garbage gear because whoever setup the grow didn't know their head from their butt when it comes to being informed.

The quality of workers is a virtual cesspool too. One of my job interviews involved pulling up the sleeves on my shirt to prove I didn't have needle tracts on my arms. I laughed when I was asked that and said to the owner "who the fuck have you guys been employing out here?" Apparently anyone with a pulse, because most people that go "I want to work in weed!" go "oh shit this is actually still work, this sucks, I want to go back to slinging sacks on my couch playing Burnout on Playstation 1."

Minimum wage labor grows commercial cannabis. That's the Gods honest truth. Kids flipping burgers literally make more money than most commercial cannabis growers. So it's tough for the workers to take pride in what they do when it's skeleton crews making peanuts for a wage, working in shitty ass conditions.

It seems relatively simple and cost-effective for commercial operations to store herbal material sealed in inert atmosphere (N or CO2) in freezers, avoiding all new microbial growth and other contamination (insects, mice, etc.) and also largely stopping chemical breakdown of cannabinoids and terpenes.

This does happen already to an extent; that's the premise for growing plants for "fresh frozen" processing. But that's a very specific business model and there's definitely some investment and operating cost for having a walk-in cooler (essentially) large enough. Dispensary-wise, it's common to see concentrates stored in an actual cooler/freezer.

I presume the problems you cite with heavy metals (or other chemical) and mold contamination are mostly with outdoor grows? [But how does that even happen to commercial scale legal growers, who can better control soil/media, nutrients, water, etc.?]

Heavy metals are more prominent with outdoor grown (higher chance to absorb contaminants from the ground and openly exposed to whatever is blowing in the air,) but indoor grows are still prone to it as well because most greenhouses aren't very well sealed, and I've never seen a grow that actually addresses air quality in the first place.) So whatever is blowing outside in the air has a pretty good chance to be exposed to your indoor plants, pending on setup.

Again, this is pretty Colorado specific in my feedback, but the majority of grows are light deprivation greenhouses or outdoor grown.

Most greenhouses growing weed in CO aren't actually rated for CO weather (the wind primarily,) and utilize wet walls (evaporative coolers) to cool their growing spaces, versus the cost of running proper air conditioning units. At Arkannabis farms, the head grower was fine with running flower rooms that REGULARLY hit 115 deg F daily. Mind blowing. And then you have the waaaaaaaarm, wet moist air from the water wall, that nobody is addressing all the mold, or calcium buildup.... lol.... making me remember the BAD TIMES here... lol

It's a breeding ground for mold from the get-go.

You'll find powdery mildew in virtually any commercial grow on the planet. To my knowledge, powdery mildew still isn't tested for on a pathogen testing panel, because it's a host obligate parasite (requiring a living host to complete it's biological functions,) so it won't grow on agar like they test for other molds.)

According to Nordic Analytical Laboratories, one of the more commonly used labs used in pathogen and potency testing around the area of Pueblo, CO, it's not just what's in the surrounding soil (remember that cannabis a pretty amazing bio-accumulator, so it's easily absorbing contaminants around it to the point where it can have higher concentrations of those contaminants in it's tissue than the average levels of the contaminants in it's environment,) but what's in the air as well. THEY (the lab itself,) suggested to our farm that we bud wash all samples BEFORE sending them in for testing, to help reduce airborne related contamination that could show up on testing.

Radiation is the new buzz word in cannabis. From my commercial groups I run with; it sounds that radiating ALL FLOWER is going to become a standard procedure because of how strict testing has become. If you radiate or treat cannabis before testing, it's not considered a remediated product, even though much of that same technology is used to remediate cannabis AFTER it's been found to be contaminated.

And then devil's advocate to the testing itself, cannabis has extremely high and strict guidelines for it's pathogen and heavy metal testing, higher than tobacco and other related products. It's not to say there shouldn't be a high standard, but it's almost "too high," when no one else is playing to that same level of requirements.

 

[BII]

You'll find powdery mildew in virtually any commercial grow on the planet. To my knowledge, powdery mildew still isn't tested for on a pathogen testing panel, because it's a host obligate parasite (requiring a living host to complete it's biological functions,) so it won't grow on agar like they test for other molds.)

So mold testing (in CO) involves only attempting to culture live fungi, doesn't matter if buds were badly infested? No visual or microscope inspection? No testing for mycotoxins or spore counts (even if dead)? If only a single culture-based test, yes it seems ideal for growers to simply totally sterilize their crop after harvest, such as irradiating it as you mention.

But radiation is highly regulated, dangerous, requires specialized equipment and security, likely costly, etc. Why aren't or do commercial growers use other common sterilization methods, such as portable aerosolized H2O2 blowers (becoming common in pharmaceutical industry), ethylene oxide gas (used with various foods), UV, flash pasteurization/heating, etc.? Or growers could use and rinse off a disinfectant when/if they wash harvested buds.

Washing buds to remove live fungi sounds like cheating, if what's to be sold is not similarly washed. Like the grower selecting the 1 or fewer buds to be assayed for THC (vs. say taking a random grab sample of actual product and put that through a blender).

 

[WildBill]

Sophistication unfortunately has nothing to do with it; it's all about the $ and the willingness of the owner(s) or investors to spend money or to trust the people they have working for them to make the right decisions (which the turns into "well how much will this cost?"

In my experience, most grow owners are not growers, they are just the money. Every single grow I have worked for has a barn, room, conex, etc, absolutely full of all the failed equipment the grower before them suggested buying, or it was the initial setup for the grow that was just cheap, shitty garbage gear because whoever setup the grow didn't know their head from their butt when it comes to being informed.

The quality of workers is a virtual cesspool too. One of my job interviews involved pulling up the sleeves on my shirt to prove I didn't have needle tracts on my arms. I laughed when I was asked that and said to the owner "who the fuck have you guys been employing out here?" Apparently anyone with a pulse, because most people that go "I want to work in weed!" go "oh shit this is actually still work, this sucks, I want to go back to slinging sacks on my couch playing Burnout on Playstation 1."

Minimum wage labor grows commercial cannabis. That's the Gods honest truth. Kids flipping burgers literally make more money than most commercial cannabis growers. So it's tough for the workers to take pride in what they do when it's skeleton crews making peanuts for a wage, working in shitty ass conditions.



This does happen already to an extent; that's the premise for growing plants for "fresh frozen" processing. But that's a very specific business model and there's definitely some investment and operating cost for having a walk-in cooler (essentially) large enough. Dispensary-wise, it's common to see concentrates stored in an actual cooler/freezer.



Heavy metals are more prominent with outdoor grown (higher chance to absorb contaminants from the ground and openly exposed to whatever is blowing in the air,) but indoor grows are still prone to it as well because most greenhouses aren't very well sealed, and I've never seen a grow that actually addresses air quality in the first place.) So whatever is blowing outside in the air has a pretty good chance to be exposed to your indoor plants, pending on setup.

Again, this is pretty Colorado specific in my feedback, but the majority of grows are light deprivation greenhouses or outdoor grown.

Most greenhouses growing weed in CO aren't actually rated for CO weather (the wind primarily,) and utilize wet walls (evaporative coolers) to cool their growing spaces, versus the cost of running proper air conditioning units. At Arkannabis farms, the head grower was fine with running flower rooms that REGULARLY hit 115 deg F daily. Mind blowing. And then you have the waaaaaaaarm, wet moist air from the water wall, that nobody is addressing all the mold, or calcium buildup.... lol.... making me remember the BAD TIMES here... lol

It's a breeding ground for mold from the get-go.

You'll find powdery mildew in virtually any commercial grow on the planet. To my knowledge, powdery mildew still isn't tested for on a pathogen testing panel, because it's a host obligate parasite (requiring a living host to complete it's biological functions,) so it won't grow on agar like they test for other molds.)

According to Nordic Analytical Laboratories, one of the more commonly used labs used in pathogen and potency testing around the area of Pueblo, CO, it's not just what's in the surrounding soil (remember that cannabis a pretty amazing bio-accumulator, so it's easily absorbing contaminants around it to the point where it can have higher concentrations of those contaminants in it's tissue than the average levels of the contaminants in it's environment,) but what's in the air as well. THEY (the lab itself,) suggested to our farm that we bud wash all samples BEFORE sending them in for testing, to help reduce airborne related contamination that could show up on testing.

Radiation is the new buzz word in cannabis. From my commercial groups I run with; it sounds that radiating ALL FLOWER is going to become a standard procedure because of how strict testing has become. If you radiate or treat cannabis before testing, it's not considered a remediated product, even though much of that same technology is used to remediate cannabis AFTER it's been found to be contaminated.

And then devil's advocate to the testing itself, cannabis has extremely high and strict guidelines for it's pathogen and heavy metal testing, higher than tobacco and other related products. It's not to say there shouldn't be a high standard, but it's almost "too high," when no one else is playing to that same level of requirements.

And that's on a regulated product!

Can you imagine all the underhanded crap that goes on making the " Gas station weed" and concentrates?

 

[BII]

Further complicating things, beside growing, I presume in coming years we will have in-home enzyme-driven synthesis and/or cell culture kits to make and purify diverse, including non-natural, THC analogs. In-home chemical synthesis could become feasible too. Already various synthetic THC analogs, such as delta-8, are widely (quasi)legally sold in most US states with no real quality control or regulation, such as sold at gas stations, convenience stores. Most anybody will be able to make custom cannabinoids and mixtures, likely much more cost-effectively vs. growing, in larger quantities, and get product in-hand in day(s) vs. waiting months. How will (or won't) this be controlled or regulated (or not)?

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Where this conversation is sort of headed is the fact that the products of home cultivation are unregulated except for the charitable exchange / sharing / gifting regulations.

Those make sense from a law enforcement and criminality perspective, of course, but the public health and safety side of it sorta puts home cultivation itself at risk. Meaning, that's the backdoor they'll eventually use to try to clamp down on home cultivation.

I think not too soon after they legalized, Ohio proposed an amendment to eliminate the sharing clause. I think it was viewed as re-criminalization and voted down, though. But, the 'home grown is (more or less) dangerous and therefore should be outlawed (or otherwise more/less strictly regulated)' argument is a battle that we'll probably have to fight for a long time.

That fight, in a sense, is what would be called advocacy - but, if you look around, most if not all of the nonprofit and cannabis advocacy groups are focused on commercial cultivation instead of home cultivation for obvious reasons. Even the Cannabis Research Coalition is a for-profit group whose mission focuses on 'developing techniques for...profitability' for its 'partners' in 'academia and industry'.

Unfortunately, advocacy for home cultivators is something that can't really happen on or through AFN at the current time.

For example, theoretically, any advocacy on AFN contradicts 'The Autoflower Network's Scientific Approach' policy (i.e., 'law'). And, technically, this entire thread and conversation already violates AFN's 'law' on forum etiquette because there's no longer a 'World in Cannabis' section:

Forum Etiquette Policy

Please review this policy about forum etiquette and expectations as users!

www.autoflower.org

True, those could be updated and worked around, but then you run into the problem that for any advocacy to be meaningful or effective, it has to be public and external from a community and not private and internal to a community. Otherwise, we're all just a bunch of potheads sitting around in violent agreement with each other while we rant and rave at patterns of light on a screen.

But, then you run into the fact that the primary way most people 'deal with' these 'wacky and incoherent laws' is through discretion and nondisclosure - i.e., we keep our transgressions minimal to avoid the ire of our overlords, and we use pseudonymity / anonymity as a fail-safe in the event that we do incur their wrath.

Keep in mind that not all states and locales currently permit home cultivation, that 10-20% of AFN visitors are from a country that prohibits any type of cannabis use or cultivation, and AFN is technically only a single complaint and/or overzealous attorney general away from being charged with violating the RICO Act in facilitating the interstate transport of cannabis seeds intended for cultivation through its breeder sections. Luckily, AFN has only about 10% the monthly visitors of other cannabis sites, and the eye of Sauron is currently focused elsewhere, so we should continue to have some leeway and/or protection into the foreseeable future.

Most people tend to think that getting the laws passed means that the war is over, but it's really just the start of the counter-offensive. Even if legal and lawful, cannabis is (and, arguably, always will be) still 'illicit' (i.e., considered to be socially and/or morally wrong). We're basically just the pornographers of the agricultural and pharmaceutical industries.

I've been growing ever since legalization, but I still haven't 'come out' for cannabis publicly because of the social and professional implications - i.e., once I do, there's sort of no going back to other industries. And, I'd much rather support the 'home cultivation industry' (which is by definition a nonprofit industry) rather than the 'commercial cultivation industry'. So, I guess my point in the meantime is - go buy war bonds and donate to AFN.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

So mold testing (in CO) involves only attempting to culture live fungi, doesn't matter if buds were badly infested? No visual or microscope inspection? No testing for mycotoxins or spore counts (even if dead)? If only a single culture-based test, yes it seems ideal for growers to simply totally sterilize their crop after harvest, such as irradiating it as you mention.

Labs don't care. Their moral compass points at your wallet. It is not only easy to doctor samples to pass, but it's very quite often done. The more strict regulation is actually what's starting to deter this practice (at least in terms of pathogens and heavy metals,) because if a product is suspect on the shelf even after initial testing at the grow, it's subject to retesting and recall, which is incredibly expensive for whoever is at fault (which generally falls back to the grow.) Let's not even begin to start talking about "lab shopping" as well. It's like doctor/script shopping, if one says no, you find the one that says "yes."

But radiation is highly regulated, dangerous, requires specialized equipment and security, likely costly, etc. Why aren't or do commercial growers use other common sterilization methods, such as portable aerosolized H2O2 blowers (becoming common in pharmaceutical industry), ethylene oxide gas (used with various foods), UV, flash pasteurization/heating, etc.? Or growers could use and rinse off a disinfectant when/if they wash harvested buds.

Radiation is becoming the new standard from what I can tell. There are certainly other methods that exist; Willow Industries in Colorado does ozone remediation for example, but ozone makes your buds taste and smell like a hospital (they claim it doesn't, well it absolutely does lol. The machine rentals are also very, VERY expensive, or you can buy one of their racks if you sell a few kidneys.) They've updated some of their models it looks like on their website, but not even last year their prior models involved spreading the buds on multiple trays placed into racks, meaning you can only treat relatively small batches at a time (which is a shit show if you have a literally metric TON of weed to process.)

H202 remediation for cannabis is also a thing, but I'm not sure if it's on the approved list (which I presume is set by the local MED or governing body) when it comes to the commercial side of things.

Here's a recent 2023 article on Colorado's cannabis growers trying to "skirt one over" that bolsters my point:

State Warns Marijuana Growers After "Many Examples" of Attempts to Cheat Testing

A June 2 memo from the MED pointed the finger at cheaters.

www.westword.com

Washing buds to remove live fungi sounds like cheating, if what's to be sold is not similarly washed. Like the grower selecting the 1 or fewer buds to be assayed for THC (vs. say taking a random grab sample of actual product and put that through a blender).

It is cheating if that's the sample that's going to testing.

Testing for potency is the same shit show, there are guidelines for how to pick the samples from the plants, but no one does that, it's a cherry picked process. You can absolutely dust your samples in kief to try increase the cannabinoid testing as well. That's why chasing THC percentages around is absolutely ludicrous. Not to mention just the general holes in testing in general (no standardized methods of testing, etc.) The same buds on the same branch from the same plant will all test out differently. Those are facts.

And that's on a regulated product!

Can you imagine all the underhanded crap that goes on making the " Gas station weed" and concentrates?

IMO after years of working in the industry, home grown is by far and away a potentially better and cleaner product flower-wise. I'm not talking about mexican brick schwag still in the shape of the gas can it was smuggled in; I'm talking about growers like you producing quality products at home and knowing what goes into your process and outcome.

Now, if you're talking black market like these fake "Mario Kart" vape pens and products that look like they are marketed to kids, then yes, I would be very leery trusting those types of sources.

cell culture kits to make and purify diverse, including non-natural, THC analogs.

Tissue culture for cannabis is already a thing. It's just a little expensive to start, but not out of the reach of anyone reading this (sterile environment is probably your biggest obstacle.)

Most anybody will be able to make custom cannabinoids and mixtures, likely much more cost-effectively vs. growing, in larger quantities, and get product in-hand in day(s) vs. waiting months. How will (or won't) this be controlled or regulated (or not)?

Give politicians the will, and they will find a way to make things more difficult than they need to be.

I think not too soon after they legalized, Ohio proposed an amendment to eliminate the sharing clause. I think it was viewed as re-criminalization and voted down, though. But, the 'home grown is (more or less) dangerous and therefore should be outlawed (or otherwise more/less strictly regulated)' argument is a battle that we'll probably have to fight for a long time.

IMO this has less to do with the dangers of growing at home, and more about the diversion of money that could potentially be made if it's instead regulated and forced to be sold through retail shops.

Unfortunately, advocacy for home cultivators is something that can't really happen on or through AFN at the current time.

I'm sorry but that isn't remotely accurate. We've been advocating for home and small-scale cultivation since the dawn of the forum. You haven't been a member here for very long.

For example, theoretically, any advocacy on AFN contradicts 'The Autoflower Network's Scientific Approach' policy (i.e., 'law'). And, technically, this entire thread and conversation already violates AFN's 'law' on forum etiquette because there's no longer a 'World in Cannabis' section:

Again, it does not. In fact, it encourages the exact opposite.

We can encourage a formal "meeting of the minds" for the challenge process, where those with different aptitudes and expertise on the topic can discuss, brainstorm, and improve on the idea, as well as informally, with one-on-one discussion, casual conversation, or social group settings (like this forum!)

Advocacy is showing public support for a particular cause or policy. I'd say growing your own medicine is plenty of cause for most!

And, technically, this entire thread and conversation already violates AFN's 'law' on forum etiquette because there's no longer a 'World in Cannabis' section:

AFN Forum Etiquette is a set of guidelines for being civil on the forum that was updated years ago. It could use a revision for sure, and just to show you how easy it is for us to change these guidelines, I've removed that bit about the World of Cannabis section and politics in general. Now you don't have to sweat

True, those could be updated and worked around, but then you run into the problem that for any advocacy to be meaningful or effective, it has to be public and external from a community and not private and internal to a community. Otherwise, we're all just a bunch of potheads sitting around in violent agreement with each other while we rant and rave at patterns of light on a screen.

Says who?

Keep in mind that not all states and locales currently permit home cultivation, that 10-20% of AFN visitors are from a country that prohibits any type of cannabis use or cultivation, and AFN is technically only a single complaint and/or overzealous attorney general away from being charged with violating the RICO Act in facilitating the interstate transport of cannabis seeds intended for cultivation through its breeder sections. Luckily, AFN has only about 10% the monthly visitors of other cannabis sites, and the eye of Sauron is currently focused elsewhere, so we should continue to have some leeway and/or protection into the foreseeable future.

With respect Bruce, it seems like that was meant to be a fear-mongering statement. That's a very odd thing for you to say.

We've actually met with cannabis lawyers (Denver, CO based) about the forum and have had the consultation of attorneys from a company that actually wanted to buy the forum from us awhile back; while you can be sued for just about anything if there's any money to keep it going, I feel relatively confident that the site is protected well enough in what we facilitate as a forum and what we do not, and has had plenty of legal eyeballs on it that generally say "this is okay."

By your logic, anyone involved in anything to do with cannabis online or anything to do with seeds is at risk of the same type of repercussions and legal recourse. I'm not sure if we've really seen that to be true over the years.

Remember we've been doing this for over 13 years Bruce. Not our first nor our last rodeo. And that doesn't mean we shouldn't be ever vigilant, but I don't think jumping to extreme conclusions or outcomes is helpful either.

Most people tend to think that getting the laws passed means that the war is over, but it's really just the start of the counter-offensive. Even if legal and lawful, cannabis is (and, arguably, always will be) still 'illicit' (i.e., considered to be socially and/or morally wrong). We're basically just the pornographers of the agricultural and pharmaceutical industries.

We have dispensaries all over Nebraska, which is incredibly anti-cannabis. Time and advocacy (ho ho ho see what I did there?!) will help change people's perspectives. And remember, you can't win them all today, but there's always tomorrow.

 

[Bruce Campbell]