Small population photo-to-auto breeding?

[parsing_trees]

Have you considered increasing plant numbers but decreasing pot size in the early stage to full auto ? or is number of plants the issue

I mostly grow in solo cups and 1 liter airpots anyway (using coco and bottom-feeding them all together), so there doesn't seem like much point in going even smaller.

I asked about a dozen plants because that seems like a very hobbyist/amateur breeder plant count, and I'm wondering how much is realistically possible at that scale.

 

[parsing_trees]

Did you pick up WAs too?

Yes, I got some at the same time and tried growing them last summer. They all died from damping-off, as did some others I started with them (my environment was off, not the breeder's fault), then I got my environment back in line and started some Anvil regs instead, which turned out great. I got another pack of WA regs when they restocked, I will try those again later.

 

[Fitzy]

Thanks. I figured I should try to use at least two males per generation for that reason, and keep track of which seeds came from which.

Do you know what the mechanism is where there are a few autos in the F1? It doesn't really fit the single gene recessive trait model, which seems to fit the overwhelmingly common case, but I've heard several auto breeders say the F1 can sometimes have a few autos. Somebody said they don't use them, they are probably too strongly leaning towards the auto parent in the cross and not bringing in enough of the photo parent's traits, but I don't know how strongly those would be linked.

So while it's true most people don't use them i dont see why not so I did lol I'm an experiment and try kinda guy, now I've not had any issues with the 1 I have used which is in multiple crosses and it only slightly resembled the original auto the bud density and plant structure where the same but smell terps ect where different. Now for all I know I could have crossed this auto to a quasi day nuetral photo or atleast the trait was within the photos genetics, now I've not continued yet with other photo to auto genetics i have yet as I only do a single set of photos bc of hot temps and no AC in summer so I have not done this with multiple but again I have used the resulting auto to make a few crosses and I've had no issues with photos poping up. I can absolutely say other breeders like mephisto even when I crossed stilton special x 3bears og to a reg breeder it turned out amazing but after backcrossing it to stilton special x 3bears of I saw hermie traits this isn't the first time I've had issues with there gear but it tells me that it was double recessive bc I've done backcrosses with the regs I prefer and it hasn't happened even after backcrossing again. I also run a stress test and purposefully stress the hell out of them just to see wat issues arise so far that and a Ripleys og cross which needed to be flipped for about 5 days then went back to 18/6 which it finished up under nut it wouldn't flower auto like it should have. This is why I started doing my own bc the breeder seem to be more about hype then actual quality genetics im not saying all breeders but I'm poor and can't afford genetics that possibly won't give the results I need which is the reason I started breeding. Most cultivars are mediocre its very hard to find real fire these day sure looks good but doesn't give the effects I need.

 

[Blu_tri]

So while it's true most people don't use them i dont see why not so I did lol I'm an experiment and try kinda guy, now I've not had any issues with the 1 I have used which is in multiple crosses and it only slightly resembled the original auto the bud density and plant structure where the same but smell terps ect where different. Now for all I know I could have crossed this auto to a quasi day nuetral photo or atleast the trait was within the photos genetics, now I've not continued yet with other photo to auto genetics i have yet as I only do a single set of photos bc of hot temps and no AC in summer so I have not done this with multiple but again I have used the resulting auto to make a few crosses and I've had no issues with photos poping up. I can absolutely say other breeders like mephisto even when I crossed stilton special x 3bears og to a reg breeder it turned out amazing but after backcrossing it to stilton special x 3bears of I saw hermie traits this isn't the first time I've had issues with there gear but it tells me that it was double recessive bc I've done backcrosses with the regs I prefer and it hasn't happened even after backcrossing again. I also run a stress test and purposefully stress the hell out of them just to see wat issues arise so far that and a Ripleys og cross which needed to be flipped for about 5 days then went back to 18/6 which it finished up under nut it wouldn't flower auto like it should have. This is why I started doing my own bc the breeder seem to be more about hype then actual quality genetics im not saying all breeders but I'm poor and can't afford genetics that possibly won't give the results I need which is the reason I started breeding. Most cultivars are mediocre its very hard to find real fire these day sure looks good but doesn't give the effects I need.

I’m with you @Fitzy I also prefer to make my own genetics for the same reasons that you stated.
I found it hard to find a strain that suited my needs, therefore I built one. In my opinion, it’s the only way to get exactly what you want.
And even though I have what I like, I still buy other guys work because I like to keep up with what’s going on in the cannabis word.
If I’m not happy with the strain, I still try to remain positive about it because it may be great to someone else.
Breeding is no easy task. And after all the hard work that you put in, you will find that you cannot please everyone.
I see you are interested in breeding so I will offer some advise. There is no easy way to do this. Any shortcut that you take, will show up in your work. Everyone here is a breeder, so they will definitely know when you take shortcuts and rush things.

 

[Fitzy]

I'm learning myself so wouldn't claim to be a authority on it. I've heard many differing opinions on it but I'm going to look for healthy, smelly, pest resistant and vigorous males to start and plan to test beans from a couple. I heard Mr soul of brothers Grimm say in a speech something to the effect of (you can't tell what a woman's breasts will look like from looking at her dad. You have to see all the daughters to see what he brings to the cross). Obviously paraphrasing but you get the idea. Bodhi talks a lot about his males that also add something but allow best traits from the female to express themselves too. I'm in it for the experience at the moment. If I'm blessed with goodness it's icing.

This is 100% your best bet is use multiple males for this reason. Now as for wat to look for is node spacing plant structure how big and if it has frost ect now like was said above you still won't have any idea if/how well they will cross. Here is a few pics of a pineapple crack f4 I have bred

 

[JSH1973]

If you could get a few people to help you grow a plant or 3 you it could probably be worth the few dineros in postage back and forth to save a few months here and there.

 

[Blu_tri]

It gets tough when you have to choose how many plants that you will pheno hunt through.
That’s why so many, including myself, suggest quality genetics.
Quality has a different meaning to everyone.
To mean it means I can get consistent results.
Some will choose yields, some terps, some potency, some will even choose a plant structure more suited to their space. Each breeder has a different perspective on quality.
So when I’m chucking, breeding or strain building, I’m looking for genetics that I can incorporate into my build that doesn’t have too many variables….”Phenos”
I choose not to use genetics that are all over the place. That’s why I use 2 samples…. Either you are alike, or you aren’t. Plain and simple. . And I’m not talking about terps. I expect the terpenes to be different every plant.
I’m talking about differences in the plant structure. Different calyx stacking, leaf to flower ratio, growth rates, among other things that I can physically see. If I can see such a difference in just 2 plants, I know I will have the same differences regardless of how many I choose to pheno hunt through.
In my opinion, The closer the 2 are alike, the better the genetics are. These days it’s very rare to see a strain produce similar plants.
Choosing better genetics will decrease the amount of waste that you will have to toss out later. For that reason, I like to get my genetics as close to the original source as possible. Even if I have to pay more for them. Cheating yourself with inferior genetics, will cost your much more in the long run.
1:10 is to much. So when you are selecting genetic that are 1:100 or 1:1000. Think about it if you only purchased 10 beans. You only expected one decent plant.
Any way do it your way. Enjoy the process, and learn as much as you can. As always the Nympho says Fly High!

 

[ThaPollinator!]

It gets tough when you have to choose how many plants that you will pheno hunt through.
That’s why so many, including myself, suggest quality genetics.
Quality has a different meaning to everyone.
To mean it means I can get consistent results.
Some will choose yields, some terps, some potency, some will even choose a plant structure more suited to their space. Each breeder has a different perspective on quality.
So when I’m chucking, breeding or strain building, I’m looking for genetics that I can incorporate into my build that doesn’t have too many variables….”Phenos”
I choose not to use genetics that are all over the place. That’s why I use 2 samples…. Either you are alike, or you aren’t. Plain and simple. . And I’m not talking about terps. I expect the terpenes to be different every plant.
I’m talking about differences in the plant structure. Different calyx stacking, leaf to flower ratio, growth rates, among other things that I can physically see. If I can see such a difference in just 2 plants, I know I will have the same differences regardless of how many I choose to pheno hunt through.
In my opinion, The closer the 2 are alike, the better the genetics are. These days it’s very rare to see a strain produce similar plants.
Choosing better genetics will decrease the amount of waste that you will have to toss out later. For that reason, I like to get my genetics as close to the original source as possible. Even if I have to pay more for them. Cheating yourself with inferior genetics, will cost your much more in the long run.
1:10 is to much. So when you are selecting genetic that are 1:100 or 1:1000. Think about it if you only purchased 10 beans. You only expected one decent plant.
Any way do it your way. Enjoy the process, and learn as much as you can. As always the Nympho says Fly High!

So, first off, I'm in no way disagreeing with you. This is the kind of discussion I was really hoping for in this thread.....

I'm am wondering if you're alluding to the night owl genetics though in particular since both parsing trees and I are using them. You note that you had issues with Meph too, so it appears to be a direct correlation due to the source of NO's genetic parental lineage. Or is it Bodhi? You did state "cheating yourself with inferior genetics" and I'm curious what genetics you're referring to in particular. I've personally grown out autos from at least 8 different popular breeders and meph has been top most of the time as far as flower. Never used them for breeding obvioulsy so I can only judge off of that. If you were just making a general statement, I understand but seems pointed following the meph comment and I can't avoid asking.

I've read many different opinions from breeders, and many, do not all share the same on who produces quality and/or what produces quality. Quality is as you say based on personal opinion and preference. In that sense, the term isn't that useful. I think you're really saying homogeneous or uniform. That makes sense to me. It's also why I am staying away from starting with F2s. From all that I've read, if you actually wanted to open up a strain and look at the genetic makeup or "family tree", you would want to F2 the strain and start digging. That would be ok if I had a farm or a commercial facility. Probably, not for the home grower. We can obviously breed away from traits we don't like and for ones we do through selection but there's no way around the numbers. If I want to see what's in the bean, I have to pop it.

Using ratios to assess my population then requires looking at a minimum percentage of the beans. If I only pop 10 out of say 2000 produced, I'm only looking at 0.5% or 1:200 of that seed population. Not much of a chunk if looking at a diverse population. What you're saying is you prefer to look at a known source to start then. This is similar to starting with a cutting except adding one more step to the process through seed selection. You state "as close to original source" but what do you mean by that? If I took a pack of C99 for example that has been in-bread to the point of uniformity at say F6 or F7, I would have much less to dig through but is not close to the "original source" from the way I look at it. I think I may be misunderstanding that particular statement.

I understand that a breeder with access to facilities and the resources to manage large crops will ultimately have the ability to hunt in a way that I cannot but I still want something that is quality and unique to me. Again, for me, it's knowledge and experience in the present. I'm hoping to find something good along the way. I do know I didn't need regular auto genetics to create my own auto though. I could just as well start with pollen from a male photo-period crossed to my favorite fem auto and begin selecting from there. I think the goal is what is the determining factor here though. If I want an auto in x amount of time, I have to cut out all the additional variables and pick the best and move forward. I personally don't have a date set........just a destination. :smoking:

Anyway, here to learn and looking forward to more discussion.

Cheers!

 

[Blu_tri]

So, first off, I'm in no way disagreeing with you. This is the kind of discussion I was really hoping for in this thread.....

I'm am wondering if you're alluding to the night owl genetics though in particular since both parsing trees and I are using them. You note that you had issues with Meph too, so it appears to be a direct correlation due to the source of NO's genetic parental lineage. Or is it Bodhi? You did state "cheating yourself with inferior genetics" and I'm curious what genetics you're referring to in particular. I've personally grown out autos from at least 8 different popular breeders and meph has been top most of the time as far as flower. Never used them for breeding obvioulsy so I can only judge off of that. If you were just making a general statement, I understand but seems pointed following the meph comment and I can't avoid asking.

I've read many different opinions from breeders, and many, do not all share the same on who produces quality and/or what produces quality. Quality is as you say based on personal opinion and preference. In that sense, the term isn't that useful. I think you're really saying homogeneous or uniform. That makes sense to me. It's also why I am staying away from starting with F2s. From all that I've read, if you actually wanted to open up a strain and look at the genetic makeup or "family tree", you would want to F2 the strain and start digging. That would be ok if I had a farm or a commercial facility. Probably, not for the home grower. We can obviously breed away from traits we don't like and for ones we do through selection but there's no way around the numbers. If I want to see what's in the bean, I have to pop it.

Using ratios to assess my population then requires looking at a minimum percentage of the beans. If I only pop 10 out of say 2000 produced, I'm only looking at 0.5% or 1:200 of that seed population. Not much of a chunk if looking at a diverse population. What you're saying is you prefer to look at a known source to start then. This is similar to starting with a cutting except adding one more step to the process through seed selection. You state "as close to original source" but what do you mean by that? If I took a pack of C99 for example that has been in-bread to the point of uniformity at say F6 or F7, I would have much less to dig through but is not close to the "original source" from the way I look at it. I think I may be misunderstanding that particular statement.

I understand that a breeder with access to facilities and the resources to manage large crops will ultimately have the ability to hunt in a way that I cannot but I still want something that is quality and unique to me. Again, for me, it's knowledge and experience in the present. I'm hoping to find something good along the way. I do know I didn't need regular auto genetics to create my own auto though. I could just as well start with pollen from a male photo-period crossed to my favorite fem auto and begin selecting from there. I think the goal is what is the determining factor here though. If I want an auto in x amount of time, I have to cut out all the additional variables and pick the best and move forward. I personally don't have a date set........just a destination. :smoking:

Anyway, here to learn and looking forward to more discussion.

Cheers!

@ThaPollinator! Brother don’t used me to as an excuse to exercise your rant. It’s obvious that you have some animosity against someone. If it’s me, just speak up. No code needed.
You have definitely misread my post.
I am a mephisto fanboy to the fullest. And through association, I’m pretty sure I’ll like night owl seed as well.
Although I have no working knowledge or experience with night owl seed. With them being somewhat affiliated with Mephisto, makes them ok in my book. I have seen many grows of NOS gear and i am very impressed with what I see. If given the chance, I happily grow something of theirs.
Brother your post make it appear that I’m very negative about the mentioned breeders. Bodhi, Mephisto, and Night Owl Seeds. Feel free to quote or screenshot that which you are referring to.
Just so know, I will jump at the chance to work with either of those breeders.
My post come from personal experiences only. I don’t go around repeating stuff I read on the net.
If I want to know what a breeder gear is like, I happily spend that $$$ with him so I will know first hand what they are offering.

“Cheating yourself with inferior genetics” …if I have to explain myself. Refers to bag seeds, or seeds that you get from your buddy who, says “this is that”. Or getting seeds from people who say someone else told him it was “whatever”. I’m sure you know the drill.
In better words, If you want mephisto, Bodhi, Night owl seed, seed junky, in house genetics, buy them from the breeder. Or the official site that they list.
That way can have an honest opinion when you are speaking on someone’s gear.
So whatever your rant is about brother, I would like to be kept out of it.

 

[ThaPollinator!]

So, first off, I'm in no way disagreeing with you. This is the kind of discussion I was really hoping for in this thread.....

I'm am wondering if you're alluding to the night owl genetics though in particular since both parsing trees and I are using them. You note that you had issues with Meph too, so it appears to be a direct correlation due to the source of NO's genetic parental lineage. Or is it Bodhi? You did state "cheating yourself with inferior genetics" and I'm curious what genetics you're referring to in particular. I've personally grown out autos from at least 8 different popular breeders and meph has been top most of the time as far as flower. Never used them for breeding obvioulsy so I can only judge off of that. If you were just making a general statement, I understand but seems pointed following the meph comment and I can't avoid asking.

I've read many different opinions from breeders, and many, do not all share the same on who produces quality and/or what produces quality. Quality is as you say based on personal opinion and preference. In that sense, the term isn't that useful. I think you're really saying homogeneous or uniform. That makes sense to me. It's also why I am staying away from starting with F2s. From all that I've read, if you actually wanted to open up a strain and look at the genetic makeup or "family tree", you would want to F2 the strain and start digging. That would be ok if I had a farm or a commercial facility. Probably, not for the home grower. We can obviously breed away from traits we don't like and for ones we do through selection but there's no way around the numbers. If I want to see what's in the bean, I have to pop it.

Using ratios to assess my population then requires looking at a minimum percentage of the beans. If I only pop 10 out of say 2000 produced, I'm only looking at 0.5% or 1:200 of that seed population. Not much of a chunk if looking at a diverse population. What you're saying is you prefer to look at a known source to start then. This is similar to starting with a cutting except adding one more step to the process through seed selection. You state "as close to original source" but what do you mean by that? If I took a pack of C99 for example that has been in-bread to the point of uniformity at say F6 or F7, I would have much less to dig through but is not close to the "original source" from the way I look at it. I think I may be misunderstanding that particular statement.

I understand that a breeder with access to facilities and the resources to manage large crops will ultimately have the ability to hunt in a way that I cannot but I still want something that is quality and unique to me. Again, for me, it's knowledge and experience in the present. I'm hoping to find something good along the way. I do know I didn't need regular auto genetics to create my own auto though. I could just as well start with pollen from a male photo-period crossed to my favorite fem auto and begin selecting from there. I think the goal is what is the determining factor here though. If I want an auto in x amount of time, I have to cut out all the additional variables and pick the best and move forward. I personally don't have a date set........just a destination. :smoking:

Anyway, here to learn and looking forward to more discussion.

Cheers!

Pardon, the mix up. That was Fitzy that had the meph issues. Details...lol