Nutrients Science Vs Commercial

[Mushinronsha]

Hello everyone,

So I have had my head in papers and forums for the last 2 days trying to figure this out. When it comes to nutrients, lets say strictly base nutes for now, there are dozens of products out there. Many with cult followings and many with haters. Most of them have some level of success, or at least people have had success with them. With that being said, the base nutrient values of all these different products are all over the fucking place. I mean, they are not even close to each other. Growing in hydro, in clay pebbles, my water and nutrients is my grow medium and anyone who has battled with plant issues knows how important and intertwined all these damn nutes are and they have to find a balance. Add that to the fact that plants need more/less depending on the stage they are in and now its a whole lot of fuckery. So how the hell can all these companies have so many ratios and still produce results? I mean some have to be out performing others right?

Well good luck figuring that out. Go browse the forums on the interwebz and you will find fan boys and growers all over the place saying this one is the best or this one is the worst. I cant even get through a side by side comparison grow journal without it going off the rails with mis-information or a million of no proof opinions. Where is the damn science? The controlled studies being done in labs and cultures tested and results measured? Well I could only find 2 breakdowns of NPK ratios and nutrient values that were being used scientifically. I am going to list them below.

Now the weird thing about both these formulas, is the very small amounts of P. In both of them though? If anyone can chime in on why those in the labs are requiring/using such low amounts or what the pro/cons are please share. Im a believer in less is more. So when I read shit like this my thoughts are "fuck P" (This is some 90's rap reference if anyone gets it). My take away from all this is simple. For Veg it should be: N( Medium amount), P ( Low amount), K ( between the amount of N or up to double) then when we get to flower my thoughts are : N (fuck N, we dont need this shit no more), P ( same weak ass amount as before), K ( Lets go ahead and bump this one up some more because we are growing weed not tomatoes so why not).

Now I know my explanations may be lacking scientific pazaz. But I am a man of logic and not chemistry. That is why I am sharing this to try to get to the bottom of this from a large amount of experienced growers and collective knowledge.

As far as commercial products go compared to these break downs. There are a few that are close. Manly Jacks and my personal use, MegaCrop. However I have been having issues with MC in the end of grow and on the forums its been suggested that towards the end. dial back the total formula to lower the N and than supplement with a P/K booster. However when AI was looking at doing this, and thinking about these formulas, I thought well fuck P again, why not just add K? So that is where i am at. Has anyone else experimented with running low P through out the whole grow? What was the results? I am excited to see what the community has on this one.

The Hoagland Solution

• N 210 ppm
• P 31 ppm
• K 235 ppm
• Ca 200 ppm
• Mg 48 ppm
• S 64 ppm
• B 0.5 ppm
• Fe 1 to 5 ppm
• Mn 0.5 ppm
• Zn 0.05 ppm
• Cu 0.02 ppm
• Mo 0.01 ppm

Steiner's formula

• N 170 ppm
• P 50 ppm
• K 320 ppm
• Ca 183 ppm
• Mg 50 ppm
• S 148 ppm
• B 1 to 2 ppm
• Fe 3 to 4 ppm
• Mn 1 to 2 ppm
• Zn 0.2 ppm
• Cu 0.1 to 0.5 ppm
• Mo 0.1 ppm

 

[BII]

Many growers may be feeding more P than they realize if they use common pH-down products, which are mostly phosphoric acid (soluble phosphate). Or maybe the nutrient companies presume this and adjust their P levels down.

Wide diversity in nutrients is probably related to the broad ability of our plants (weeds?) to tolerate wide variations, whether in nutrients, light, temperature, ventilation, etc.

 

[Mushinronsha]

Many growers may be feeding more P than they realize if they use common pH-down products, which are mostly phosphoric acid (soluble phosphate). Or maybe the nutrient companies presume this and adjust their P levels down.

Wide diversity in nutrients is probably related to the broad ability of our plants (weeds?) to tolerate wide variations, whether in nutrients, light, temperature, ventilation, etc.

Well I guess its not as much the companies lowering the P. I'm inquiring the opposite, why are they so P intensive. I understand the value of P in the plants cycle, but at the same time I can not find any scientific proof that P is needed more than a steady smaller amount through out the grow. When I am reading that plants only need a P to K ratio of 1:6 or 1:7 but then see products that are promoting 2:3 ratios. I cant help but wonder if it is doing more bad then good? Possible blocking out some of the micro nutrients and even stunting growth.

 

[Mushinronsha]

@Mañ'O'Green @Waira Just adding you 2 in here to get your thoughts on this. Is it that we as growers are over doing the P? Or are the realities of cannabis that it requires a much more extreme amount compared to other fruiting plants grown in lab test? If the latter of the 2, does anyone have any articles they can share that dives into this?

 

[Mushinronsha]

I guess I will add my thinking on this for next grow is actually kind of specific. Since I am running MC and plan to dial it back once flowering starts, instead of adding Bud Explosion to supplement it. I was considering just adding there Sea-k Kelp extract that is 0-0-15.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

I did the same investigation a few years ago and decided I needed a PHd. in Plant Nutrition and a lab to get down to the nitty gritty. I have neither! So I am doing this old school - Observation with trial and error.I took the Harley Smith Master Gardner Course and he knows what I wish I did. With the help of his course and the NPK Industries RAW products I am trying to dial in a formula for my drip to waste system. A wild card that makes it hard is growing different strains from seeds. Each plant seems to have slightly different nutrient needs. That aside I am getting pretty close. The last grow had a little P deficiency at the end of the grow. I made changes in my formula for this grow. Here is what I am using:

I am running about 70% of the vendors suggested strength:

 

[Mushinronsha]

I did the same investigation a few years ago and decided I needed a PHd. in Plant Nutrition and a lab to get down to the nitty gritty. I have neither! So I am doing this old school - Observation with trial and error.I took the Harley Smith Master Gardner Course and he knows what I wish I did. With the help of his course and the NPK Industries RAW products I am trying to dial in a formula for my drip to waste system. A wild card that makes it hard is growing different strains from seeds. Each plant seems to have slightly different nutrient needs. That aside I am getting pretty close. The last grow had a little P deficiency at the end of the grow. I made changes in my formula for this grow. Here is what I am using:

I am running about 70% of the vendors suggested strength:

View attachment 1155783

I fucking love this! There is so much data to digest here. I could ask a million questions lol. I see that you are trying to narrow it down for your system and that is awesome. I could never keep records that in depth . The only thing that throws me off about it is using MC as the base. It seems they provide a lot of those things already that you are adding, and other then toward the end of my grow while using MC, the plants love it, so why supplement it all? It seems like if you really wanted to narrow it down you would pick a more pure base formula,using raw materials, maybe like the ones I posted and work from that. idk, just my thoughts on it if I was going to try narrow it down that specific. Im also fucking high though so maybe this is where my journey will lead me one day lol.

So it does look like you definitely dial the MC back and supplement with the P/K Bud Explosion toward the end. It also seems like you keep the P steady until flower. Than pound them really hard and slowly dial it back. Have you tried to just find a medium amount maybe like 3 to 4 on the Ammonium Phosphate and keep it steady all grow? Also I see you ramp up the K really high as you get to end. Have you tried to keep it high all of flower?

 

[Mushinronsha]

@Mañ'O'Green Also can I ask what grams per gallon of MC are you using to get those numbers or you just measuring PPM? Right now I have been running my grow start to finish at 3 grams per gallon.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

You see that is the thing, I am trying to give the plant MORE of what it is using at the time it is using it and less when it is not. Remember a lot of this is based on how I SEE the plant responding.

The chart above is based on grams for 10 gallons; so just divide by 10 and you have how much I am using per gallon.

 

[Waira]

So I have had my head in papers and forums for the last 2 days trying to figure this out. When it comes to nutrients, lets say strictly base nutes for now, there are dozens of products out there. Many with cult followings and many with haters. Most of them have some level of success, or at least people have had success with them. With that being said, the base nutrient values of all these different products are all over the fucking place. I mean, they are not even close to each other. Growing in hydro, in clay pebbles, my water and nutrients is my grow medium and anyone who has battled with plant issues knows how important and intertwined all these damn nutes are and they have to find a balance. Add that to the fact that plants need more/less depending on the stage they are in and now its a whole lot of fuckery. So how the hell can all these companies have so many ratios and still produce results? I mean some have to be out performing others right?

55gal drum of worms opened up here CD! I'll chew on this one paragraph at a time, and answer best I can...I may not be able to cite specifics, studies/research, etc but can speak to what I've seen here and experienced personally,... I think there's no definitive answers here, sweeping generalizations I avoid because they are often full of exceptions and conditional factors.... Furthermore, ALL the nutes are needed all the time, they all serve their purpose during the entire life cycle, some are just more important, in demand, etc. at different times as you noted...
The NPK ratios do follow a trend for genuine cannabis nutrients that I see. It's all about the ratio's, some wiggle room on this, but a veg' formulation is pretty clear, as is bloom... To the best of my knowledge most all veg' formulations will have significantly higher N content vs. P, K values, or near the same as N... I think much of this depends on how specific the nutes are made for target plants though... Dyna-Gro, a good co', has "Grow" that's so called all-purpose, and that's the key phrase there! That product is 7-9-5, which is OK for cannabis and a wide variety of other plants too... I use this for my orchids as a general fert. because it covers all the bases more or less evenly, best for most types that can bloom over several months. They do have other products much better for cannabis IMO, much more "biased" to the stages: Foliage Pro 9-3-6, and Bloom 3-12-6,... Years ago, there were a bunch of growers here using the Grow More brand Sea Grow all purp. 16-16-16 and it worked just fine (extra P doesn't seen to mess with things like extra N does in bloom stage), and switch to Bloom 4-26-26.. That is more like a bloom booster IMO, with such high numbers and big ratio differences, and always used diluted for both... Not optimal, but it worked!
Keep in mind, the plant can store quite a bit of the mobile nutes, so this lends some flexibility to formulations, and stability in the plants performance within a certain range of course.... Also in play (for soil/soiless mainly, especially organics) the soil itself and the microbes are a reservoir, 'crobe's cycling uptake and release as well... So, this is why in part there's no specific right/wrong formulation for veg' and bloom per se,...

Well good luck figuring that out. Go browse the forums on the interwebz and you will find fan boys and growers all over the place saying this one is the best or this one is the worst. I cant even get through a side by side comparison grow journal without it going off the rails with mis-information or a million of no proof opinions. Where is the damn science? The controlled studies being done in labs and cultures tested and results measured? Well I could only find 2 breakdowns of NPK ratios and nutrient values that were being used scientifically. I am going to list them below.

This is why I love this place! We have many fine growers, and some of them are great nute line testers because their grows are otherwise consistent in other aspects, so minimizing those other factors,... Dabber comes to mind, though he's been a big GLN fan for a while, he has run other stuff, and will be with Prescription Brand nutes soon I think? And we know also that some folks do well with certain brands, not so much with others while another grower rocks that same brand... Variables, layer and layers of variables CD, makes for difficulty in assessing this,... There are scientific studies out there, but you'll have to fish for them and really understand the scientific methodology behind the models made for such testing, and analyzing the results... It's actually quite complex and difficult to keep all things apples-to-apples, to isolate individual aspects and test them against a control group (no small challenge on that either!)...

Now the weird thing about both these formulas, is the very small amounts of P. In both of them though? If anyone can chime in on why those in the labs are requiring/using such low amounts or what the pro/cons are please share. Im a believer in less is more. So when I read shit like this my thoughts are "fuck P" (This is some 90's rap reference if anyone gets it). My take away from all this is simple. For Veg it should be: N( Medium amount), P ( Low amount), K ( between the amount of N or up to double) then when we get to flower my thoughts are : N (fuck N, we dont need this shit no more), P ( same weak ass amount as before), K ( Lets go ahead and bump this one up some more because we are growing weed not tomatoes so why not).

:smoking:
Now all this said, it's clear that nute co's are pushing marketing forces into the equation here! And as you've seen in Sick Bay, it's all too easy to botch things, juggling pH and trying to avoid defc's and/or toxicities! I'm not sure about these formulations and relatively low P numbers (like we see in MC)...are those two made for cannabis specifically? In any case, again it comes down to ratios, not necessarily total amounts (hence the need to dilute often depending on those NPK#'s).... I can't account for why MC has such low P, but I know from what I've seen here and experienced personally that low P at the wrong time will compromise both yield and quality (bud:leaf ratio), genetics and other factors aside... This is why many MC users are adding in PK boosters, @Dabber I cited before elsewhere before...
Another example: I had a bad run with BioTabs, organic, outside photo's, when the Tabs had a sudden rapid breakdown pre-bloom, which burned tips, and then a few weeks later P defc. kicked in during initial bud setting... I noticed the flower clusters were smaller and kinda airy during this time, followed by the outward leaf symptoms of P defc. (plants will suffer defc. consequences well before they literally show it in the leaves)... I started up with synthetic right-now available bloom nutes, PK booster actually (Open Sesame 5-45-19?) to try and fix that mess,... it was of limited help, some responded better than others, mainly according to their finishing speed; long term bloomers fared better than faster ones, and most ended up with inferior bud:leaf ratio's for what that given strain is known for....
I think all these variable factors are taken into account for most nute formulations, a shotgun blast approach to make sure that even with feeding errors, their product will still show well enough,... That said, don't go crazy with the K inputs, K plays entirely different roles in the plants vs P, one reason why you see all good formulations with plenty of K around... GLN is very heavy on K across their line-up! MC, BE, even Sweet Candy is loaded with it... Critical for terpenes like S, yes, but again too much is bad news as well; worse, the symptoms for defc. and toxicity are very close! I find I have to look closely at a growers total inputs first when I try to diagnose their problem plants... And this is why, anecdotally speaking, I recommend going to a bloom nute with even or higher P biased ratio than what BE offers,.. I think BE is better for finishing, after big P inputs are no longer beneficial... Those huge PK booster numbers, I'm dubious about how much effect they have past a point. Extra does help, but there's no definitive numbers to assign to this, as you have noted in frustration ! I use all of them at diluite rates regardless,.... Again, there are some peep's here who just fine with what seems to be off ratio feeds, and since I'm not a plant physiologist, I can't wrap it up in a nice ball of explanation for you, just offer some things to chew on...