Does calmag count towards your target PPM or EC in distilled or RO water?

[PeaceLove&Buds]

Yeah JP c’mon man!

 

[PeaceLove&Buds]

@joshua311 what and how have you been growing before this decision to try something new?

 

[JP1]

I'd trust manufacturer buffering and quality control way before that done by end-users. To me, this rinsing, soaking and charging is increasingly not needed as more manufacturers pre-buffer their coco products or otherwise have to compete

Why would you trust the manufacturer? Ever checked a bag of buffered coco and it's 900+ppm because they didn't wash the salt off the coco enough? It's hard to find consent coco locally and until recently it was very expensive to ship loose coco. So it's easy for me to start the way that I do instead of chasing problems down the road. I like to soak for a day in calmag solution and then soak for a day in light nutes before dropping a seed. Easier to do that then overfeed the calmag since calmag also adds extra N

 

[joshua311]

But would this same baseline (presumably of the water held by the coco) be achieved if you simply did a good drain-to-waste initial charging of the coco with your initial nutrient formulation containing your preferred level of Ca/Mg? I presume yes.

What instructions do you use, and do you recommend this for other coco users?

I'd trust manufacturer buffering and quality control way before that done by end-users. To me, this rinsing and charging is a ritual that doesn't actually buffer the coco (vs. the water it holds) and seems increasingly not needed as more manufacturers pre-buffer their coco products or otherwise have to compete. In the current market, there is no need to use coco actually needing end-user buffering. For example, recently in another thread it was generally agreed that Canna coco is among those good to go right out of the bag.

Canna coco is the coco I am using

@joshua311 what and how have you been growing before this decision to try something new?

dry amendments, worm castings, and some low ec soil. I want something more hands on. Coco seems like it gets the best results.

 

[BII]

Why would you trust the manufacturer? Ever checked a bag of buffered coco and it's 900+ppm because they didn't wash the salt off the coco enough?

No! In 10 years with ≥4 grow cycles/year (lots of bags of coco) I've never had a problem. Were your problems with Canna? As noted in another recent discussion, there is consensus that Canna coco is good to go right out of the bag.

I presume only manufacturers can actually buffer coco, with this done during often months-long controlled fermentation/composting and repeated rinsing, likely with some proprietary/trade secret processing (controlled addition of Ca/Mg) along the way, with the surface chemistry (metal ion binding affinities) of the coco fibers long-term if not permanently altered.

Isn't the core goal of buffering to avoid having to regularly add cal-mag, particularly the Ca? End-user rinse/soak/charging methods I presume mostly just affect the water held by the coco, are just temporary. To me having to add Ca (and perhaps Mg) during the grow indicates inadequate coco buffering.

The end-user ritual of buffering followed by charging with nutes at desired EC and pH seems overall harmless, but unlikely to long-term buffer the coco.

 

[JP1]

To me having to add Ca (and perhaps Mg) during the grow indicates inadequate coco buffering

I don't use any calmag during the grow and buffering my own at least lets me know it's good

 

[BII]

I don't use any calmag during the grow and buffering my own at least lets me know it's good

It seems likely that your buffering and charging hasn't really affected the pre-buffering done by Canna (as it should be), and that you'd likely get the same results without the buffering, if you just did a good drain-to-waste with your charging nutrient feed water.

As I noted, this end-user buffering seems mostly harmless, so keep on doing it if it gives you increased confidence, "lets [you] know it's good."

 

[Olde School Player]

Hello, I am growing using the coco for cannabis feed chart. This my first coco grow using nothing but liquid nutrients. I am using distilled water until my RO system comes in. With the feed chart I am following it says seedlings need around 200 ppm. When I add calmag first it already puts my ppm at 200. When I add the other nutrients it brings the feed to 400 ppm. Does the 200 ppm or .4 EC of calmag count towards the total ppm or EC of my nutrient solution? I really don’t know if I am asking the question correctly. Thanks for any and all advice. Have a great day.

This is going to sound like I might be disagreeing with @Johnny Blazin but I'm not, just explaining my answer in a different fashion.
MINERALS will increase the ppm of your nute solution, as will macro & micronutrients, frequently referred to as fertilizer salts. Most ppm recommendations do not accommodate for this, and you are on the right track by ignoring the effect of your cal-mag supplement to your distilled water.
Traditional or "real" calcium and magnesium is present in ground water. It comes from the actual minerals as named. If you grow organically, you use dolemite lime to provide calcium. Many farmers also use lime when preparing their fields for cultivation. Lime has a buffering effect for the pH value of your grow medium. The way AN claims their nutrients "balance" pH is not by magic, it's by including a healthy dose of calcium & magnesium in their solutions. It's a wonder mineral. It does affect ppm, but generally / almost, doesn't affect NPK nutrient strength. Except for the compounds used to provide that ingredient in your nutes. Huh????
Most nutrient solutions use compounded forms of calcium and magnesium, which has the effect of adding a minimal amount of actual nutrients / fertilizer salts to your solution. Look at the nutrient strength label of CalMagic - NPK strength is 1-0-0. Look at the "Derived from" section of the label - Calcium Gliucoheptonate, Calcium NITRATE, Iron & Magnesium NITRATE. The Ca & N represented by the 1-#-# strength comes from the Nitrate portions of those compounds.
Soooo... in good faith, you can practically ignore the effect the supplement has on your total nutrient strength because it's minimal. But it DOES add a little.

Let's go a step further, especially since you are coco, and you are ordering an RO system. I strongly recommend you also use a silicate supplement such as GenHydro's Armor Si. Once again -does it add ppm? Yes, the nute NPK strength is listed as 0-0-4, derived from Potassium Silicate. The potassium part is a fertilizer salt. Fortunately, my recomended dosage with RO water is 2mL per gallon, which has negligible effect on the strength of your solution.
Why add this? Secondarily, you're using purified water. Primarily, you're using coco coir. Roughly 90% of the earth's crust is made of silicates. Dirt farmers get it naturally. Coco doesn't have any. It's not technically a fertilizer salt (but Potassium in the compound is), but it's a MINERAL that's important to plant health, improves flowering, heat & stress tolerance and light absorption.

Hope this helps you understand what & why. Bestaluck to ya & happy growing.

 

[BII]

This is going to sound like I might be disagreeing with @Johnny Blazin but I'm not, just explaining my answer in a different fashion.
MINERALS will increase the ppm of your nute solution, as will macro & micronutrients, frequently referred to as fertilizer salts. Most ppm recommendations do not accommodate for this, and you are on the right track by ignoring the effect of your cal-mag supplement to your distilled water.
Traditional or "real" calcium and magnesium is present in ground water. It comes from the actual minerals as named. If you grow organically, you use dolemite lime to provide calcium. Many farmers also use lime when preparing their fields for cultivation. Lime has a buffering effect for the pH value of your grow medium. The way AN claims their nutrients "balance" pH is not by magic, it's by including a healthy dose of calcium & magnesium in their solutions. It's a wonder mineral. It does affect ppm, but generally / almost, doesn't affect NPK nutrient strength. Except for the compounds used to provide that ingredient in your nutes. Huh????
Most nutrient solutions use compounded forms of calcium and magnesium, which has the effect of adding a minimal amount of actual nutrients / fertilizer salts to your solution. Look at the nutrient strength label of CalMagic - NPK strength is 1-0-0. Look at the "Derived from" section of the label - Calcium Gliucoheptonate, Calcium NITRATE, Iron & Magnesium NITRATE. The Ca & N represented by the 1-#-# strength comes from the Nitrate portions of those compounds.
Soooo... in good faith, you can practically ignore the effect the supplement has on your total nutrient strength because it's minimal. But it DOES add a little.

Let's go a step further, especially since you are coco, and you are ordering an RO system. I strongly recommend you also use a silicate supplement such as GenHydro's Armor Si. Once again -does it add ppm? Yes, the nute NPK strength is listed as 0-0-4, derived from Potassium Silicate. The potassium part is a fertilizer salt. Fortunately, my recomended dosage with RO water is 2mL per gallon, which has negligible effect on the strength of your solution.
Why add this? Secondarily, you're using purified water. Primarily, you're using coco coir. Roughly 90% of the earth's crust is made of silicates. Dirt farmers get it naturally. Coco doesn't have any. It's not technically a fertilizer salt (but Potassium in the compound is), but it's a MINERAL that's important to plant health, improves flowering, heat & stress tolerance and light absorption.

Hope this helps you understand what & why. Bestaluck to ya & happy growing.

What is your opinion of whether if (using coco) cal-mag should be regularly added or whether it should only be added if there is a known or visible need for it (or maybe 1-2 times prophylactically during a grow)?
Do good base nutes need it added?
Does quality pre-buffered coco need it added?
And if Ca and/or Mg is needed during the grow, is foliar feeding the best way (fast, effective, fail-safe)?

 

[Olde School Player]

What is your opinion of whether if (using coco) cal-mag should be regularly added or whether it should only be added if there is a known or visible need for it (or maybe 1-2 times prophylactically during a grow)?
Do good base nutes need it added?
Does quality pre-buffered coco need it added?
And if Ca and/or Mg is needed during the grow, is foliar feeding the best way (fast, effective, fail-safe)?

Well, I'm NOT coco, I'm pure hydro. But there are strong parallels. As to foliar, my main objection to that is that you have waited until there is a problem before taking action. I prefer to prevent the problem in the first place. And, cal-mag is a huge help in maintaining a balanced pH in your plant's root zone, so I think it needs to be present in almost every feed cycle. Including those with base nutes.
Have you ever wondered about Advanced Nutrients' claims that their product automatically balances any pH? Well, it's not magic, they just include a healthy dose of calcium & magnesium which acts as buffering to a plant's pH. Secondarily, it's very difficult to add too much calcium, and to a lesser extent magnesium, so over-dosing is not a problem with these minerals. Silicates? They form about 90% of the earth's crust, making them the most common element on the planet. At my dosage recommendations it will be next to impossible to develop an excess in your grow mediums (if at ANY dosage level, for that matter). My only though countering that would be that the calcium, magnesium & silica present in these additives are derived from compounds that do include fertilizer salts, so you can't entirely ignore their effect on ppm / EC.
I do not believe coco will hold more minerals than needed, especially if you do no over-dose, and especially if you regularly flush. By flush, I mean one feeding is all nutes, a second feeding is pH water with molasses. Many dirt farmers add a third feeding of just pH balanced water, but I feel the water - molasses method is better. The molasses encourages and maintains microbial activity that is healthy for plants in their root zone. I can't use molasses anymore since I'm hydro, but I do use Flora Nectar, which is also a carbohydrate that has many / most of the same advantages. For coco, I feel use of molasses is even better.
I add 2mL of Armor Si and 4 mL of Cal Mag, and a full nute regimen to my reservoir when filling. Every time I top off, I add same dosage. My nute strength formulas reduce over time. But for the most part, if it goes into my reservoir, it includes both. If I find PPM's in my reservoir climbing beyond my prescribed strengths, I may add an RO-only water top-off at a ratio to bring ppm's back into my prescribed ranges. You can kind of accomplish the same thing by monitoring the ppm / EC of your runoff, and tracking over the grow period. If you encounter climbing PPM's over a grow cycle, omit the Si - Cal - Mag for a cycle or two. If nutes are going in, it's going to include all three. Only water? still includes all unless ppm's are climbing.
Quality pre-buffered coco will lose its effectiveness over time. The dosages I recommend, combined with flush, should never result in a buildup to problematic levels.

One of these days I might accidentally answer a question with a simple 1-yes 2-no 3-maybe 4- but not on Friday. But if i do, you better send someone to check on me. Otherwise, I think I answered all your follow ups, some more than once. But if I missed, feel free to reach back.
Tomorrow.
I'm going to bed now.