and here' s the SNOG ,lovely and so damned sticky its almost painful even :D soo sweet n smooth. mouthwateringly delicious too :)



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I have a freshwater fishtank now that I have been maintaining for a couple months now. Has anyone had successful grows with good yields using that as a water source? I initially got it because of the Revs book. Hopefully you've come across some organic growers using clean, healthy, properly ph'd freshwater fish tank water thatve had good results. I use my RO water to keep it supplied but I know there's plenty of good stuff in the tank once it's been at least a week. I ph weekly.

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i know a guy here that does aquaponics on a commercial scale. very very knowledgeable on how to do things like that...its not as simple as watering with fishtank water but he can shed some light on what your thinking.. www.aquagrowers.com the guy you want to email is kenneth.
 
Just one observation, it's not clear to me when everyone is saying coco if they are talking about using Coco Loco soil or coco coir fiber. I get the impression some are talking about one and other the other. Maybe it's just me confused, but when hydro and coco get talked about together, I start thinking coco coir as a hydro medium.

Also, I think that along the lines of pop22's question, it would be nice if there was at least ONE other option for controlling PH in the water. I have no problem with EJ crystals, and in fact was using them even before I started looking at Kindsoil, but when that's the one and only option that can supposedly be used in a whole wide chemical world of possibilities, it starts felling a little like "do you guys own stock in EJ or something?"... I dunno... :smoking:
you can use anything organic to control your ph.. if you want to use lemon juice fine, but why use that when you can simply buy a 16$ bottle of crystals that will last you for almost a year and its designed for what your specifically trying to accomplish and use it for? again, chemical growers buy and specifically use phosphoric acid and potassium carbonate/hydroxide to PH adjust your chemical mixes am i right? i have to assume your not out using baking soda and vinegar when you use chemical grow lines right? I wouldn't use baking soda and vinegar as ph adjusters, I'm pretty sure if growers here are running higher end grow lines they aren't trying to figure out how to get by with a 3$ bottle of vinegar or a 2$ baking soda box to adjust VS. a 10$ bottle of Ph up/down thats designed to work with their system, so why would we suggest options like that to growers using our system. Should growers want to use lemon juice or vinegar and they have been successful with it great i would never suggest changing what works but i won't suggest to new growers "hey spend all this money on all your grow equipment, room, genetics, soils and you know what instead of spending 16$ more.. just buy a 3$ bottle of vinegar or a 1$ lemon 15x through your grow to PH adjust if needed." I'm going to suggest what has worked repeatedly for growers with our system and should they choose to go a different way thats totally fine and their choice but not what we suggest and know is consistent across the board. the issue is theres not 10 different companies making organic PH adjusters, because EVERYONE uses chemicals/teas of some kind in growing.
Plus Generally all that drops all water PH levels naturally and generally requires the addition of a base, so most of us never even use acids and if we do its on a very limited basis. Is there other options clearly you can do many different things, even something like using molasses to PH adjust it will naturally drop PH levels.. but i want to make it as simple and fool proof as possible for growers using our soil, and i do want to keep the grower using things that are designed for what they are trying to accomplish VS. taking a short cut to save a truly minimal amount of money.

In most cases we hope that growers don't even require PH adjusting realistically most tap/well/filtered water is in a safe enough PH range to not require PH adjusting. However should you need it we suggest using citric acid crystals.
 
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general hydro, advanced nutrients, fox farms or any nutrient company out there aren't stating on their website "add our grow micro bloom and ph adjust with baking soda" and i would assume anyone working for them wouldn't get on and say use/buy our product and instead of using a proper PH adjusting product use lemons. they are going to tell you to use products they know are not only designed for growing but also that they know works well with the products they provide for growers. Should other growers get on and start a journal using the grow products with lemon juice great it can show growers maybe that works well and can be an option. thats really a large point of these boards to show growers how other growers maybe doing things a bit different. We just are recommending what we know works and works better than the other current options
 
Thank you! As my tag line says, I question everything, but I do so to get meaningful answers, not out of any preconcieved notion about your products or methods. I think you have a fine product. I know you've had to herd us in the direction this test should go, as you've discovered most of us are diehard tinkerers..lol!

As to my RO water, its a necessity. Even filtered, my tap water kills cannabis......... ONLY.... hows that for weird. And I mean kills it, within 2 weeks, they look like I poured sulfuric acid on them, burnt, yellowed shriveling leaves. no one has figured out why. Even had the water tested and nothing was found out of acceptable limits! I even tried triple filtering and adding that at 50% to my RO water..... BOOM! Destroyed a DWC test grow! So my only other option is go to town and haul water back, and I just can't physically. So if you or anyone has insight as to why my water kills cannabis, but my veggies love it, I'd appreciate it!






so sorry i got way behind with deliveries before we closed for a few days and I didn't have a chance to get back on here. citric acid has the benefit of chelating nutrients, making them more available to the plant rather than just adjusting ph alone. The citric acids don't build up in the media like phosphoric acids tend to. We have ran both side by side, when we run phosphoric acids through the entire grow, we PH tested the soil and it had dropped to 5.0 that exact same grow, same media from same bags and everything was ran with citric acid crystals and the PH of the media was 6.1 after flower. Clearly you can take into account maybe the OM in the soil weekend in one pot more than the other or something else but a difference of 1.1 is a large change in PH which really can only account for build up. A lot of people aren't taking into consideration most all of us never used acid to adjust plain water consistently and feed just that consistently. We would normally be using a lot of chemical or something in the water that causes the PH to drop and we raise it with a base. Very rarely are we using acids to adjust or if we do its for a once a week flush or something along that line. Its not something we use consistently. The other thing we were told about soils and phosphoric acids from fox farms was that at certain %levels Phosphoric acids can make the bio life in the soil slow and or die (at strong enough levels). now you can say what does that matter when its so weak or i use so little, but the issue isn't always with the levels it can be again with build up. Using that acid over and over without a flush could build up causing those issues. while speaking on residual you can take a liquid acid stick your finger in it and try washing it off, it takes quite a it to completely wash it off your hands its almost like a slimey/sticky feeling. you can take a handful of citric acid crystals and put them in your hand put a bit of water in it and scrub till it dissolves, even after your hands have soaked it up they aren't nasty or showing a phosphoric acid style burn.. other than that i can't really explain why people have really serious issues with phosphoric acids and hot soil. its just something we have seen over and over again.

I do have a question though if advanced nutrients was on here and stated to never use anything other than advanced PH products with their grows or you will have a horrible grow, would everyone say "they don't know what their talking about I'm going to do it another simpler way.." or would you follow what they say to the T because you trust they know what they are saying because they have done the trials and seen the issues with other companies PH products?

As for the vinegar and other options you mentioned I've said many times theres not a issue with that. If you only have a lemon available or vinegar fine, but its not what we recommend. to me theres no sense in going that route, is it okay yes but why not use a product designed for what your doing. thats almost like saying why buy a companies soil make your own every time... well fine but the companies that make soils not only have a very specific amount of mixes added to their products, theres wetting agents, specific amounts of limes to not only hold stable ph but not over shooting the starting PH. all those things aren't being done when your making the media, its a crap shoot unless your actually testing your soils and doing things properly. The citric acid crystals sold by earth juice. has been sold for years by them for the reason were using it, its also been tested over and over for organic growing. Clearly that doesn't mean everyones going to like the product its just what we recommend because we have seen issues when using Phosphoric acids and when the same growers changed to citric acid crystals they never had another issue.

the RO water thing which i also have responded to a few times, its not that we say you cannot use it, we just don't suggest it over 3 part filters (pre, carbon , post) they are more than adequate in almost every case to remove the majority of your water toxin, RO really removes fluorides, viruses and any excess contaminants that make it through. The majority of all your toxic crap is taken out through the three part system before it goes to the RO membrane. As i said before everyones water is different and everyone has to choose what works for them, But making a bunch of RO water just to put a cal-mag chemical mixture back into the system isn't something i would personally suggest with organic growing but everyone has their own ways. Ph balancing 0ppm water can really be a pain also some meters don't properly read 0ppm water. (clearly that can be changed by adding cal-mag like your suggesting)


I just want to be very clear we SUGGEST things for our growers because we've seen the issues growers have had over the years with our system and things like RO/water and PH balancing or Phosphoric acids. Im not on here stating this is the only way to do it and thats that. We are giving suggestions on what has always worked best for our growers and on top of that all our suggestions are for our system and our system only. Im not on here telling growers how to run their current grows, we are on here telling people what works best with kind soil and kind soil grows only.
 
Eyes is The Man when it comes to organics on AFN. I do organic, but I'm into simplicity and don't do super soil usually.

your grow is awesome! prime example of how your plant/ leaves should be when everything is on point they are creating their own hearty wax coating your plants look great..
 
Update:

I'm uncertain how to proceed. Both plants are horribly mutated. I don't feel they can give me or the test, a fair representation of what would be expected with normal genetics. I also feel like they are a waste of very valuable space in my greenhouse. So I'll ask the team to vote on this, and I'll abide by the outcome. Probably best to pm me rather than clog up this thread. Pm: Keep or Kill. I'll post what I'll be doing tomorrow.
 
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