Giving self-pollination a try with AKR - Journal

[thetreeman]

I dont understand the logic behind self pollinated reversed females creating a percentage of herm's as offspring. Does the reversal process cause genetic changes to the plant? Would the same happen if you cloned a female, reversed the clone and then pollinated the mother with the forced pollen? Does this happen with photo plants also? Has it been documented or researched by anyone?

 

[BillyMadison]

I dont understand the logic behind self pollinated reversed females creating a percentage of herm's as offspring. Unstable traits are passed off to some of the offspring

Does the reversal process cause genetic changes to the plant? yes

Would the same happen if you cloned a female, reversed the clone and then pollinated the mother with the forced pollen?
Interesting...I don't know why you would cut the branch, clone it, then reverse it unless you wanted a big reversed plant - idk - seems like it would throw the timing off and you would have to tweak a lot of things. You could spray a branch, reverse it, chop it off and collect the pollen with a photop instead of cloning it and reversing..

Does this happen with photo plants also?
Spray thoroughly the day before 12/12 and continue for 2-3 weeks.

Has it been documented or researched by anyone? Heavily, google is your friend, or lurk around the threads.

- - - Updated - - -

Interesting read for my nooby self.

Probability of Inheritance


The value of studying genetics is in understanding how we can predict the likelihood of inheriting particular traits. This can help plant and animal breeders in developing varieties that have more desirable qualities. It can also help people explain and predict patterns of inheritance in family lines.

One of the easiest ways to calculate the mathematical probability of inheriting a specific trait was invented by an early 20th century English geneticist named Reginald Punnett click this icon to hear the preceding name pronounced. His technique employs what we now call a Punnett square. This is a simple graphical way of discovering all of the potential combinations of genotypes that can occur in children, given the genotypes of their parents. It also shows us the odds of each of the offspring genotypes occurring.

Setting up and using a Punnett square is quite simple once you understand how it works. You begin by drawing a grid of perpendicular lines:

basic Punnett square grid framework--essentially the beginning of tick-tack-toe game box

Next, you put the genotype of one parent across the top and that of the other parent down the left side. For example, if parent pea plant genotypes were YY and GG respectively, the setup would be:

Punnett square with the genotype of one parent on the top with one letter in each square and the genotype of the other parent on the left side with one letter in each square

Note that only one letter goes in each box for the parents. It does not matter which parent is on the side or the top of the Punnett square.

Next, all you have to do is fill in the boxes by copying the row and column-head letters across or down into the empty squares. This gives us the predicted frequency of all of the potential genotypes among the offspring each time reproduction occurs.

same as the previous Punnett square but with the expected genotype frequencies of offspring are indicated in the 4 empty squares on the lower right

In this example, 100% of the offspring will likely be heterozygous (YG). Since the Y (yellow) allele is dominant over the G (green) allele for pea plants, 100% of the YG offspring will have a yellow phenotype, as Mendel observed in his breeding experiments.

In another example (shown below), if the parent plants both have heterozygous (YG) genotypes, there will be 25% YY, 50% YG, and 25% GG offspring on average. These percentages are determined based on the fact that each of the 4 offspring boxes in a Punnett square is 25% (1 out of 4). As to phenotypes, 75% will be Y and only 25% will be G. These will be the odds every time a new offspring is conceived by parents with YG genotypes.

Punnett square with both parents heterozygous (YG) showing that the offspring probablities are 25% YY, 50% YG, and 25% GG

An offspring's genotype is the result of the combination of genes in the sex cells or gametes (sperm and ova) that came together in its conception. One sex cell came from each parent. Sex cells normally only have one copy of the gene for each trait (e.g., one copy of the Y or G form of the gene in the example above). Each of the two Punnett square boxes in which the parent genes for a trait are placed (across the top or on the left side) actually represents one of the two possible genotypes for a parent sex cell. Which of the two parental copies of a gene is inherited depends on which sex cell is inherited--it is a matter of chance. By placing each of the two copies in its own box has the effect of giving it a 50% chance of being inherited.

If you are not yet clear about how to make a Punnett Square and interpret its result, take the time to try to figure it out before going on.

pics and article here http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_2.htm

 

[evol]

"Would the same happen if you cloned a female, reversed the clone and then pollinated the mother with the forced pollen?"


No. I have no scientific "proof" but my best guess is that the plant is basically confused when it has both male and female parts on the same plant and it passes that on to create hermaphrodite offspring.
When you reverse a female with cs you are simply blocking the production of the female hormone so in response the plant grows male parts. This tells us that even in a true female the male trait(genetics) is there, just being overridden by the female hormone. That is why the partially reversed AND pollinated plant gets confused and produces hermies..

If you don't properly stess test a strain and it has a dormant hermie trait you can use 2 totally different plants and still pass on the herm trait.
Hope that all makes sense, I'm a little medicated at the moment.

 

[BillyMadison]

"Would the same happen if you cloned a female, reversed the clone and then pollinated the mother with the forced pollen?"


No. I have no scientific "proof" but my best guess is that the plant is basically confused when it has both male and female parts on the same plant and it passes that on to create hermaphrodite offspring.
When you reverse a female with cs you are simply blocking the production of the female hormone so in response the plant grows male parts. This tells us that even in a true female the male trait(genetics) is there, just being overridden by the female hormone. That is why the partially reversed AND pollinated plant gets confused and produces hermies..

If you don't properly stess test a strain and it has a dormant hermie trait you can use 2 totally different plants and still pass on the herm trait.
Hope that all makes sense, I'm a little medicated at the moment.

Makes perfect sense. You have some really good in depth insight and experience.

If someone really wanted to take a clone and reverse it I would think they would have to pollinate another mother..

"Feminized seeds come from a reversed plant that pollinates other plants. Never the self pollination of that one plant. It doubles the percentage of hermies in the offspring." - Cannabis Botany by R. C. Clarke.

Interesting R. C. Let's see what happens "Stirring"

 

[BillyMadison]

https://www.autoflower.org/f5/any-one-use-product-tiresias-mist-produce-fem-seeds-11475.html

b0b_ has been shutting t mist down for 2 years it looks like, lol. (for good reason)

Snake oils....:dance2:

In essence it is WAY over priced C.Silver...

 

[evol]

Thanks, I've been growing/breeding for many years and enjoy helping others learn.

Selfing a plant with 2 clones from the same mother is a common practice with photoperiods. As long as the plant has been properly stress tested and reversed correctly you will almost never end up with herms.

You could always try to take a clone from you auto and place it in cold temps once rooted. Then reverse the mother auto and flower the clone so it can be pollinated. If you can get the clone to live long enough you would have true fem S1 auto seeds.

 

[BillyMadison]

Thanks, I've been growing/breeding for many years and enjoy helping others learn.

Selfing a plant with 2 clones from the same mother is a common practice with photoperiods. As long as the plant has been properly stress tested and reversed correctly you will almost never end up with herms.

You could always try to take a clone from you auto and place it in cold temps once rooted. Then reverse the mother auto and flower the clone so it can be pollinated. If you can get the clone to live long enough you would have true fem S1 auto seeds.

"Munch..munch..munch

very interesting.

good stuff.

 

[thetreeman]

It makes sense to me that selfing a turned female would double the chances of the offspring being hermies, assuming that the mother already has some latent hermie tendencies. BUT, if the mother is stable and stress tested, I dont think (speaking from logic, not from experience here, forgive me if Im wrong) a stable, stress tested mother that is selfed would have an unreasonably high tendency to produce unstable offspring.

For example if a mother only has a 1% chance of going hermie under normal growing conditions, and if her selfed offspring would have a 2% chance, I dont find that unreasonable. HOWEVER, if the mother had a 10% chance of turning herm, and the offspring inherited a 20% chance, that could cause a lot of issues...

If you consider that ALL plants have the ability to turn herm, selfing might just reduce the amount of negative stimulation required for this to happen. So possibly offspring in a controlled indoor grow might not have any problems at all, where the same selfed seeds in an outdoor, guerrilla grow, where they may experience extreme temperature fluctuations and moisture inconsistencies might be much more likely to change over to the dark side....

So basically, I think this would be worth trying IF you are confident you have a stable mother plant.

Please let us know how your experiment turns out!

 

[Epic Genetics]

It makes sense to me that selfing a turned female would double the chances of the offspring being hermies, assuming that the mother already has some latent hermie tendencies. BUT, if the mother is stable and stress tested, I dont think (speaking from logic, not from experience here, forgive me if Im wrong) a stable, stress tested mother that is selfed would have an unreasonably high tendency to produce unstable offspring.

For example if a mother only has a 1% chance of going hermie under normal growing conditions, and if her selfed offspring would have a 2% chance, I dont find that unreasonable. HOWEVER, if the mother had a 10% chance of turning herm, and the offspring inherited a 20% chance, that could cause a lot of issues...

If you consider that ALL plants have the ability to turn herm, selfing might just reduce the amount of negative stimulation required for this to happen. So possibly offspring in a controlled indoor grow might not have any problems at all, where the same selfed seeds in an outdoor, guerrilla grow, where they may experience extreme temperature fluctuations and moisture inconsistencies might be much more likely to change over to the dark side....

So basically, I think this would be worth trying IF you are confident you have a stable mother plant.

Please let us know how your experiment turns out!

my thought is this,,,,,,

when selfing a plant , the plant itself and not a sister clone from the same mother plant you are breeding while under stress , as much as we try to reverse the plant as stress free as possible i believe there will always be at least a limited amount put on the plant , there for i refuse to seed the reversed/partially reversed plant , the odd time i have had a seed or 2 form on a reversed plant ive simply tossed em

peace

 

[thetreeman]

I would be more interested in turning a clone and fertilizing the mother plant with it.

I know the timeframe is tight, but on some of the longer vegging/flowering autos, I would think you could take a cutting from a lower branch when the plant stops veg growth, root and reverse it and then pollinate the lower branches of the mother plant when you harvest the upper portion. Then just leave the lower part of the plant in the ground for another month for the seeds to mature... Havent tried it personally.