New Grower First auto after 22 year break!

[The Iconoclast]

my power consumption to drive the lights at the same PAR levels dropped to about half, and that's measured with a quantum meter.

Aye, there's the rub. Not long ago the professed experts were saying purple, suddenly full spectrum warm white is the new purple. As Everest Fernandez pointed out reading the PAR does not tell you which bit of par, nor how wide is what your meter decides is PAR. PAR just means it's contain what plants use but it does not differentiate between how useful is each bit of the wavelength. I mean sure plants use green light too but does the plant use it as well as it uses the blue and red? I do not know. Ultimately, the only way to know is to test it yourself in a like for like comparison using identical clones. There's no other way to know for sure. There's nothing at all like your own research. It's a very satisfying feeling to be told, that one is an idiot for suggesting something that everyone else agrees is impossible, when you know you're right because you've found it out yourself. As Groucho Marx said when an angry husband burst into the room just when his wife fainted into the arms of Groucho..."who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

I was on a forum about 8 years ago and I was going to post a tutorial on how to extract the cocaine alkaloid from powdered coca leaves in 2 hours. However I got bombarded with abuse because it's not possible to do that in two hours apparently, I asked the forum mods to protect me from the abuse, but instead they threw me off the forum. So I just kept it to myself.

Seeing as you have some purple lights, I was wondering if you are able to take a PAR reading of only the Blues and only the Reds and only the Whites. If that's possible can you post the results.

 

[The Iconoclast]

Greetings, I have returned from the rabbit hole to share my findings, take this with however many grains of salt as you like (no this is not about the brown acid) because I have no expertise in this I'm just using my own logic and I may be talking complete and utter bollox, so with that caveat this is what I have discovered...

I have not been able to find the exact 5W data sheets nor do I know if the white LED's in the Viparspectra are Bridgelux or Epiled but I have found data on the 1W and 10W Bridgelux and for my purposes either one of those are going to be good enough to see that the 5W LED's are not going to be very different in their spectral graphs.

Here is the data on warm white and cool white Bridgelux. 3000 average and 6500-7500K for my money it appears that these two white LED contain everything a cannabis plant would want. Because they both use a blue LED and use phosphors to produce the rest of the spectrum they have two peaks in blue and red, exactly where you'd want them to be, with enough green to keep everyone happy which is what makes them whitish. I'm guessing that this is going to be a very similar continuous spectrum to white COB, although there's more flexibility in the COB as they can use multiple coloured LEDs, for example I've seen green LED's in a white COB. So you could probably grow a pretty decent plant using the cool white all the way through or the red light all the way through or even better the cool white for Veg and the Warm white for flower. The warm white has much more of the red in relation to the blue and the cool white is vice versa.

However it appears that Viparspectra have boosted the most important part of the spectrum which is 580 according to wikipedia when using their 'photon weighted' curve. And as you can see Viparspectra have put extra 580nm wavelength LED in as well as the 630nm LED which according to wikipedia have a 20-30 percent greater efficiency. This is the point I was making earlier, the light overall may be less efficient than a cob, but the particular wavelength in the right range can do more work. This is where raw PAR is misleading.

I was a little bit concerned that there appears to be too much blue LEDs compared to red but now I see that the this is taken care of by the white LEDs. The early models Viparspectra look a bit ho hum, but the latest dimmable PAR models seem to be very efficiently designed. I've just pointed my laser guided thermometer directly at the bulbs on the Viparspectra and it read 40ºC which is the hottest part of the unit. If you put your hand a couple of inches away from the LEDs it burns pretty quickly because the lenses are focussing the light. But the surface is only warm. I now have the Blue and White at 100% and the Red at 50% which is what Vipar recommend for vegging. This has not only cut down the power but lowers the temp, the rest of the unit is not warmer than 36º so with the new large aluminium heat sinks on these latest models, the entire unit, is one giant heat sync that radiate at the temperature of a warm bath. Try putting your hand on the back of an HPS reflector.

I think Vipar have absolutely nailed this, and I cannot see any point at all in bothering with anyone else's lamps for a small grow room because I cannot see how you can possibly improve the spectrum they have come up with. The passive cooled Electric Sky for example would probably radiate the same warm heat, although for a huge commercial grow they are obviously much better due to their elimination of everything you don't need.

I have now moved the lights down to 18" and the fan is more gentle and the edge curl has almost disappeared. So with the lights at 18" and Vipar quoting 780 micro moles at 24" I reckon the plants would be getting just about as much light as they can handle. As the plant grows of course the lights will have to move to 28 inches to cover the full 2 x 3 foot grow space.

There's probably lots of other Lights similar to the Vipar that are just as good, maybe even a bit more efficient I don't know but I do know that yes the vipar is running three internal fans, but then I'm only running a single external fan and that is enough. So all in all, I'd buy another one of these if I needed another light. I cannot see how paying three times the price is going to get the small grower with a couple of tents any benefits.

My light meter readings on objects illuminated by the Viparspectra indicate that it the equivalent LUX (not PAR) of full sun covered with light wispy clouds cover that still casts a soft shadow. Maybe a stop and a half less than full sun. But of course you're getting it all day every day.

https://www.exciteled.com/spectrum-photosynthesis

https://www.khanacademy.org/science...synthesis/a/light-and-photosynthetic-pigments

 

[Tony21]

Yes, they do the job and 326 w is plenty for your plant.
There's no free lunch, every watt going into the grow room is heat, whether for pumps ventilators, lights, whatever. Light is heat, that's simple science. Anyone saying a 600 w led (actual) runs cooler than a 600 w HPS/HID is just blowing smokescreens, it ain't true. The Par700 moniker is just to say it had roughly the same light output as a 700 w hps. Of course it uses less power to do that so yes, less heat along with lower power consumption, it's just deception
I count every watt I use

I don't think anyone knows what the optimal spectrum, rather there's a variety of blends or cocktails like some all it haha, that does a pretty similar job, heck, there might even be many different McCree curves haha https://fluence.science/redefining-the-mccree-curve-at-utah-state-university/ ..... The links you've posted is from commercial sites with a vested interest, just like the the one I just posted haha, all of dubious value!!!

Whether optimizing power consumption is relevant in your size grow with
1 plant is an individual decision, multiplied by a factor 5, 10, whatever, over 365 days, well, I sure keep an eye on the it, especially in summer when ambient of 35-36 C is not unusual.
And not trying to reduce consumption, within reason, is rather anti-climate I think. Same goes for water consumption

 

[Tony21]

https://www.autoflower.org/threads/is-it-worth-getting-a-cob-led.67844/page-6

 

[Nosias]

Aye, there's the rub. Not long ago the professed experts were saying purple, suddenly full spectrum warm white is the new purple. As Everest Fernandez pointed out reading the PAR does not tell you which bit of par, nor how wide is what your meter decides is PAR. PAR just means it's contain what plants use but it does not differentiate between how useful is each bit of the wavelength. I mean sure plants use green light too but does the plant use it as well as it uses the blue and red? I do not know. Ultimately, the only way to know is to test it yourself in a like for like comparison using identical clones. There's no other way to know for sure. There's nothing at all like your own research. It's a very satisfying feeling to be told, that one is an idiot for suggesting something that everyone else agrees is impossible, when you know you're right because you've found it out yourself. As Groucho Marx said when an angry husband burst into the room just when his wife fainted into the arms of Groucho..."who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

I was on a forum about 8 years ago and I was going to post a tutorial on how to extract the cocaine alkaloid from powdered coca leaves in 2 hours. However I got bombarded with abuse because it's not possible to do that in two hours apparently, I asked the forum mods to protect me from the abuse, but instead they threw me off the forum. So I just kept it to myself.

Seeing as you have some purple lights, I was wondering if you are able to take a PAR reading of only the Blues and only the Reds and only the Whites. If that's possible can you post the results.

On my ChilLED Tech light I have a controller that lets me pick between 0.0% to 100% for each band. SO I could only "shine" either blue or red or white. It even can have one at Zero and the others at 100% or any percentage in between. The rub is I have no PAR reader.

 

[The Iconoclast]

@Tony.

I hear you, in a large complex grow, it can get very expensive fast. It has been said that suicide is the sincerest form of self criticism, I think I've contributed to the well being of the Earth in the most sincere way by choosing to not breed. I'm also vegetarian and I ride a motorcycle, so there ;¬)

Regarding the heat, you know I'm going to have to check this out with a physics professor and get back to you because, my instinct tells me there's something wrong with your reasoning. And my direct perception tells me that there's much less heat produced from an LED contraption. You are of course referencing the laws of thermodynamics which are colloquially known as

1. You can't win.
2. You break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

If we have a room that is completely closed off so that no energy can enter or leave apart from a power point. Then what you say would be true, whatever energy enters through that socket will raise the heat of the room, no matter how it's used. This is where my gut reaction leads me to believe my senses are speaking the truth when they tell me that LED's produce less heat, the grow room is not a closed system. But there are two separate heat issues, there's the slow build up of heat which you have to spend money on to eliminate, and there's the second issue which is how much head is being produced that is directly beamed to the plant. Then there are further complications regarding say a cool tube which can direct the heat straight to the outside. And as you have pointed out, there's a big difference between a tiny single unexhausted grow space like I'm using and your more complex set up. And there are more variables.

Regarding the quality of the spectrum and what is best, there's only one way to get an answer to that, and the inter webs is not that place. You'd have to do a completely controlled test yourself using clones. There's no other way. Unless someone else you trust has done that. Much like the aeration test that I posted earlier, I'm satisfied that enough variables were controlled for, including phenotypes, that the massively overwhelming effect of aerated water cannot be denied unless the tester was lying and tricking us. However that does not mean that it will make a difference in my set up because I do not know if because of my highly agitated shallow water culture is in fact injecting enough air in anyway. And no matter if I see an explosion of roots I'll still not know if it was the airstone I'm going to add to the reservoir or if it would have done that anyway. Again I'd have to do a side by side. But of course I'm not interested in doing that much work for a single plant, I may as well put the air stone in because it can't hurt.

 

[The Iconoclast]

Here's a very interesting DWC grow that is pretty impressive. https://tinyurl.com/DWC-grow-diary

Beginning of Week 5 today, Day 29. No sign of flowers, but I should be seeing them by the end of this week, even with a single topping this OG Kush really should be showing its sex by day 32. If it doesn't then that's either really good, or really bad. I won't know till the fat lady sings.

I'm only using the three GH Flora nutrients, with no other stuff, my personal gut reaction (i.e. meaningless conjecture) says all these secret herbs and spices that some people give their plants with 10 different bottles of secret sauce, are all bullshit. My grows in the 90's never needed any of it to produce top shelf product. I gave a clone to a friend who set up a grow closet, and he added some product I don't know what it was it may have been called 'big bud' I'm not sure, but his plant produced very badly and it had a stem all the way up that was about 3" in diameters. WTF, since I saw that, I steer well clear of additives.

Anyway I have mixed up some fresh nutrient and instead of using the recommended GH ratios, I am using the sensei seed recommended GH ratios found here https://www.sensigarden.com/general-hydroponics-flora-series/ however while I'm using their ratios, I'm not using their dilution, which seem to be too strong. I've reduced their quantity of concentrate by 40% and ended up with a concentration of 940ppm which seems plenty strong enough to me, especially as I have now started using rainwater with 35ppm instead of tap water at 140ppm.

I have also pulled out all my jets and replaced them with jets that break the water up better. What I really want is a true misting jet, which is the reason I got such a powerful pump when I didn't really need it. What I am wanting to achieve is for the roots to some out of the side of the pot. Now that I see the new jets, I probably don't need the air stone.

But while I had the plant out in the daylight on the kitchen table I was able to do some more LST work on it. I took a few leaves off last night nothing too dramatic and I took a few more lower early fan leaves off that weren't getting much light anyway so I can get better air circulation as I've heard this OG is susceptible to mildew.

I have absolutely no idea whatever what to expect of this harvest. I've seen some poor grows of a different OG Kush that only yielded about an ounce and a half. I'm expecting a bit better than that but I don't know how much better, can anyone here attempt a ball park guess as to what I may expect from this harvest taking into account what it looks like right now? At first I was hoping for maybe 7 oz but from what I've seen I think that is wildly optimistic now. I'd be pretty disappointed if I could not get 3 oz though.

 

[Tony21]

@Tony.

I hear you, in a large complex grow, it can get very expensive fast. It has been said that suicide is the sincerest form of self criticism, I think I've contributed to the well being of the Earth in the most sincere way by choosing to not breed. I'm also vegetarian and I ride a motorcycle, so there ;¬)

Regarding the heat, you know I'm going to have to check this out with a physics professor and get back to you because, my instinct tells me there's something wrong with your reasoning. And my direct perception tells me that there's much less heat produced from an LED contraption. You are of course referencing the laws of thermodynamics which are colloquially known as

1. You can't win.
2. You break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.

If we have a room that is completely closed off so that no energy can enter or leave apart from a power point. Then what you say would be true, whatever energy enters through that socket will raise the heat of the room, no matter how it's used. This is where my gut reaction leads me to believe my senses are speaking the truth when they tell me that LED's produce less heat, the grow room is not a closed system. But there are two separate heat issues, there's the slow build up of heat which you have to spend money on to eliminate, and there's the second issue which is how much head is being produced that is directly beamed to the plant. Then there are further complications regarding say a cool tube which can direct the heat straight to the outside. And as you have pointed out, there's a big difference between a tiny single unexhausted grow space like I'm using and your more complex set up. And there are more variables.

Regarding the quality of the spectrum and what is best, there's only one way to get an answer to that, and the inter webs is not that place. You'd have to do a completely controlled test yourself using clones. There's no other way. Unless someone else you trust has done that. Much like the aeration test that I posted earlier, I'm satisfied that enough variables were controlled for, including phenotypes, that the massively overwhelming effect of aerated water cannot be denied unless the tester was lying and tricking us. However that does not mean that it will make a difference in my set up because I do not know if because of my highly agitated shallow water culture is in fact injecting enough air in anyway. And no matter if I see an explosion of roots I'll still not know if it was the airstone I'm going to add to the reservoir or if it would have done that anyway. Again I'd have to do a side by side. But of course I'm not interested in doing that much work for a single plant, I may as well put the air stone in because it can't hurt.

Well, even some led sellers knows about thermo dynamics https://chilledgrowlights.com/education/do-led-grow-lights-produce-heat

https://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2005/05/fact-or-fiction-leds-don-t-produce-heat.html

I also aerate my reservoirs plus a small aquarium pump to reduce and the trays has such a large surface area there's no need for agitation. Oxygen is mainly dissolved in water by surface agitation .

Yes, testing anything is a tedious affair, takes years and involves hundreds of plants if not thousands. It's not a backyard hobby and since auto's can't really be cloned, it's a perception game.

 

[Tony21]

Btw, the few panels I have left does not have separate color channels to measure

 

[The Iconoclast]

OK I'm reading the article but I've hit a problem right away when they state... According to the Law of Conservation of Energy, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change forms. Try telling that to the particle physicists at CERN. The conservation of Energy, and the Conservation of mass was a 19th century concept. Just like space and time were separate and are now the same thing called spacetime, just like electricity and magnetism were once thought to be different but are now combined into electromagnetism, so now we have the conservation of mass energy. Pure kinetic energy, the energy of motion can disappear, and matter can be created, and vice versa. The sun is continually eliminating 4 million tonnes of mass every second and radiating energy in the form of massless photon. This mass that it loses is in the form of the binding energy. Back to the article now. Space and Time are relative but Spacetime is absolute.