Breeding F5?

[Olderfart]

See heres the pic of the card I got with em. I wonder why he stopped crossing there? I wonder if theres a reason he didnt make f6 blueberry seeds. Hmmm. I have flo seeds regular too. I cud collect pollen off both. And use the blueberry pollen on flo plants and make a few f6 blueberry seeds to see what they do as well. And then take some pollen from a male flo and use it on the blueberry and itself to see what happens. I read they are good to cross together which is why I got the 4x4 pack (4 blueberry and 4 flo) instead of the 13 pack of just blueberry.

If I were you, I would not worry about the jargon. As long as you are crossing a separate male and female from the same strain, not selfing, either through selfing the same plant, or fertilizing a mother with a reversed clone, I expect that the resulting offspring should be just as stable as the original.

Good luck with it.

 

[NorthernLights_420]

If I were you, I would not worry about the jargon. As long as you are crossing a separate male and female from the same strain, not selfing, either through selfing the same plant, or fertilizing a mother with a reversed clone, I expect that the resulting offspring should be just as stable as the original.

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the input. Appreciate it!

 

[NorthernLights_420]

I edited the title of this thread from reversing to breeding. Cuz I totally worded that wrong. Sorry to cause confusion. Lol. I didnt want to reverse a female. I wanted to use a male and female to make seeds is all.

 

[NorthernLights_420]

Would a hermie plant that produced seeds be the same as reversing a female with CS or STS? Are hermies and reversing with CS or STS both selfing?

 

[Olderfart]

A hermie plant that fertilized itself is selfing. If pollen from a hermie plant fertilizes another plant that would not be selfing unless one of them were a clone of the other.

CS or STS reversing can be selfing, or not. If you reverse one plant and use the pollen to fertilize another separate not cloned plant, that is not selfing. If you use pollen from a reversed female to fertlize either other flowers on the same plant or a clone of it that is selfing.
Clear as mud?

 

[NorthernLights_420]

A hermie plant that fertilized itself is selfing. If pollen from a hermie plant fertilizes another plant that would not be selfing unless one of them were a clone of the other.

CS or STS reversing can be selfing, or not. If you reverse one plant and use the pollen to fertilize another separate not cloned plant, that is not selfing. If you use pollen from a reversed female to fertlize either other flowers on the same plant or a clone of it that is selfing.
Clear as mud?

Yea thank you so much. Now I know.

 

[HemiSync]

I have no idea for sure what the right jargon would be, mainly because I’m just a pollen chucker, so I’m guessing. I would think that genetically your seeds produced from crossing the same strain F5 male and female would be F6, but technically since you are not the original breeder and the fact that you are starting from seed and not creating hundreds of clones to select from, your seeds will be F1. I’m sure someone with more experience will chip in and tell us we have it all screwed up. :smoking:

I’m just happy never paying for seeds again.

 

[Olderfart]

Yea thank you so much. Now I know.

Here is a simple article that explains what F1, F2 etc. means to the scientists who deal with this stuff.

F1 Generation - Definition and Examples | Biology Dictionary

The F1 generation refers to the first filial generation. Filial generations are the nomenclature given to subsequent sets of offspring from controlled or observed reproduction. The initial generation is given the letter “P” for parental generation.

biologydictionary.net

I think that technically, the answer to your initial question is that your cross of individuals of the same F5 strain is that they would be F6. The two plants involved would be siblings of the F5 cross from the breeder, so technically they are the sixth filial generation and hence, F6.

However, as pointed out elsewhere by @Proph, comparing a pollen chuck by you or me with what a serious breeder goes through makes this application of the definition somewhat misleading. If the original breeder produced an F6, he/she would plant dozens if not hundreds of seeds from F5, and select from those siblings a pair best exhibiting the characteristics being sought in the breeding program. Then, the F6 generation would be extensively tested to confirm that seeds from the new cross did not result in new problems showing up. This process of selection for and testing the F6 generation is what is missing when we just grab a few seeds and cross the resulting plants. Technically, we have produced the sixth filial generation, but we have done nothing to systematically and deliberately improve the genetic line.

Serious breeding is a large scale project because of the need to grow and evaluate so many plants through their entire life cycle. What most of us home growers do is a far simpler enterprise, hence the term "pollen chucking" to put a name to it. Pollen chucking can be fun, and lots of growers keep themselves well supplied with seeds by doing it. And once in a while, pollen chucking does seem to come up with the odd gem.

Have fun with it.

 

[PollenSax]

Would a hermie plant that produced seeds be the same as reversing a female with CS or STS? Are hermies and reversing with CS or STS both selfing?

The reason for reversing with CS, OR STS is you're physically blocking the production of ethylene. Ethylene causes a plant to become female.
But using naturally hermie plants, genetically passes on hermie genes.
I did some research on how to produce ethylene at home, and what its used for, and made a theory, and some rules for myself for reversing plants.= the less organic, the better the results. No natural Co2 generators, no budding females in the area, no compost in the area, no beer,LOL.
Just a theory, and stuff I keep in mind.
Of course all the plants I reverse have buds, so obviously it doesn't stop the process, but what about a room full of budding plants?
I wonder a lot of times when people have a hard time turning a plant, if its not because of environmental reasons, since we are blocking an invisible gas.
Ethylene is a byproduct of alcohol. Basically Anything decaying, or fruiting\budding can release it, or yeast\fungus type CO2 generators. And it is a gas.
Industries use it to ripen fruit (pick bananas green, ship here, then gas with ethylene makes em ripen in the store.)
I have an old grower friend, you might of heard of Astral Flower Genetics, well Juan is from Mexico, and he told me it is common knowledge from the old timers there, that adding a capful of alcohol to your water makes your seeds mostly female. I haven't tried it, and forgot to ask a capful to how much water. Dang it.
But Hmmmm. Ethylene is a byproduct of alchol, and it makes cannabis plants turn female, Totally seems sound to me.
I haven't looked into it much, but I hear you can turn a true male plant female, using ethylene.

 

[PollenSax]

If I were you, I would not worry about the jargon. As long as you are crossing a separate male and female from the same strain, not selfing, either through selfing the same plant, or fertilizing a mother with a reversed clone, I expect that the resulting offspring should be just as stable as the original.

Good luck with it.

I completely agree.
The way I was taught, once you reach f4, and you have been working up the same traits, you are stable enough to say you have the first generation of a stable IBL, and as long as you keep working torward the same type, and keep breeding the siblings together, it just gets stronger as an IBL.
Take 2 stable IBL's that are totally different from each other, say Indica x Sativa, and make a shit ton of seeds, cause those are the special F1 Hybrid seeds that all look alike, hopefully show hybrid vigor, and can't easily be reproduced by anybody but you.
At least thats the simple version in my head. I still get all confused sometimes, LOL