Simultaneous signs of Burn & Deficiency?

[Proph]

I did give a full veg nutes feeding on 9/6, which does seem to be about the time a lot of this kicked off. Symptoms and poor color really spread a couple days after. I have indeed been using percursor. In all cases, I've been using all the recommended components and proportions. I just flip flopped a little bit there with the half and full doses.

Quick edit: (Sorry, just now thinking of this) - I did add myco early on. Haven't treated any of them with any more of that since seedling stage, but figure it's worth mention. That's the only other thing I've added besides those couple half doses of calmagic.

It seems like a flush is in the works regardless. I've cranked out a bunch more RO water today. Sounds like my best bet is half strength Rx Blend feed in RO for the flush?

Thanks!

There's the missing link! The 1050 ppm reading makes much more sense now. Mycos is a fungi that works with the microbes to break down organic matter in the soil to make nutrients available. Precursor 1 is sugar based, which feeds the microbes and helps them multiply. So your root zone is activated and is breaking down organic matter to let the soil feed the plant. So the plants are getting food from two sources.. The soil, and the bottles nutes. That explains the ppms being twice the level of what you are feeding with. Mycos, recharge, great white, mykos, are all bacteria and fungi products that active the soil so that the soil feeds the plant. Most of them recommend reducing the bottled nute feed by half if using one of those products.

 

[olegren]

I can't believe I didn't think to mention that sooner. This makes sense though. Having been told about how beneficial myco was for root growth, I sprinkled a bit in when I first dropped the seeds (germed straight in soil) and then sprinkled a bit more in when I transplanted to final pots - in addition to treating the initial soak with the recommended dose. It was all great white myco.

Thank you very much for explaining the linkage and helping me to understand. As I was feeding, I figured that an overfeed or two would not be such a big deal; but I can see how the myco would have exacerbated the problem of a full feed.

I'm prepping my flush now: Will flush with the half dosed Rx Blend and aim to see the same PPM coming out that's going in. I'll report back on progress with some pics.

Thanks again for your alls' help!

 

[olegren]

There's the missing link! The 1050 ppm reading makes much more sense now. Mycos is a fungi that works with the microbes to break down organic matter in the soil to make nutrients available. Precursor 1 is sugar based, which feeds the microbes and helps them multiply. So your root zone is activated and is breaking down organic matter to let the soil feed the plant. So the plants are getting food from two sources.. The soil, and the bottles nutes. That explains the ppms being twice the level of what you are feeding with. Mycos, recharge, great white, mykos, are all bacteria and fungi products that active the soil so that the soil feeds the plant. Most of them recommend reducing the bottled nute feed by half if using one of those products.

With a flush, am I just looking to get back into that range of what was going in pre-flush? Or closer to what's going in for the flush? I decided to flush with pure RO so as not to waste any nutes, but it is slow going. I've put 9 gallons through the plant I pulled that 1050ppm off of; and that was still only enough to get what's coming out to 170ppm. Guess I should've started out with well water, but I didn't want to risk it since mine is pretty hard and I figured that might just complicate things further.

The next plant I'm working with was giving off about 500 ppm with RO input, so at least it wasn't as bad. I think the one with 1050 was probably an extreme. It was showing most issues and had substantially less leaves than the others, so I imagine it would've been uptaking less to begin with.

 

[olegren]

@Mañ'O'Green - apologies, this feels like a dumb question, but when flushing to 50% runoff is the idea to see about 50% of my pot’s volume come through - or about 50% of what I’ve put in?

I did a heavy flush on the one that had such high runoff PPM. Ended up running about 9 gallons through the 3gallon pot before PPM came down to a reasonable level. I'm going to check runoff on the other two that are showing milder symptoms but seem overall healthier. I plan to run the half-dose feed PH'ed to 6.4 through to the 50% as you recommended and just want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@Mañ'O'Green - apologies, this feels like a dumb question, but when flushing to 50% runoff is the idea to see about 50% of my pot’s volume come through - or about 50% of what I’ve put in?

I did a heavy flush on the one that had such high runoff PPM. Ended up running about 9 gallons through the 3gallon pot before PPM came down to a reasonable level. I'm going to check runoff on the other two that are showing milder symptoms but seem overall healthier. I plan to run the half-dose feed PH'ed to 6.4 through to the 50% as you recommended and just want to make sure I get it right.

Thanks for your help!

Either measure will work. On that pot that you flushed the heck out of be sure to add some Mykos or Recharge because you will have stripped the rhizoshpere of much of the biome.

 

[olegren]

Either measure will work. On that pot that you flushed the heck out of be sure to add some Mykos or Recharge because you will have stripped the rhizoshpere of much of the biome.

Got it - Thank you. So maybe a fresh watering for each plant with a half dose of great white? Do you think I should do this now rather than waiting until they dry? My newbie instincts would say let it dry out and then add; but I can appreciate that maybe letting them starve for two more days is not ideal. They are still pretty wet, but I'm expecting about 2 more days they should be in a normal state.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

Normally when you flush the last flush contains some nutrients and microbes. I would go ahead and add a little 3-4 ounces of the great white mixture now and then again when you actually fertigate.

 

[olegren]

Normally when you flush the last flush contains some nutrients and microbes. I would go ahead and add a little 3-4 ounces of the great white mixture now and then again when you actually fertigate.

I'm mid-flush on the second of the latter batch. The first had a runoff of 1050 with only 470 going in. 4 gal later, of my half-dose mix, and I can't seem to get it much below 650. But again: That's with 470 going in. Do you think that should be sufficient for the sake of this flush?

I am planning to do the same with the one currently flushing; then treat all four to the 3-4 oz. great white. Then I figure their first feeding might be at like 1/4 strength to try and chip away at what is still in the roots/soil. Does that seem sensible?

Again, thank you (and Proph) so very much for helping me sort this out. Hopes for this grow aren't dashed, but even if it's a total wash I have learned a lot and am already looking forward to the next batch.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

I think HF has some mineral additives that make it difficult by design to flush out. 1050 is a bit high but I have had much higher with plants that were healthy. It is the balance of nutrients that we are trying to fix. I talk about this all of the time and I forget who I have already preached to, sorry If I am being redundant. Plants can only take in nutrients balanced to the lowest element available. It is called Liebig's Law of the minimum. This is a very oversimplified visual to help understand. Basically every element above the Se is wasted because the plant does not have access to them. What is available to the plant may not be enough and the plant suffers deficiencies.



This is the one displays nutrient interactions but is harder to understanding it all.



Any how do the best you can to right the ship. Cannabis plants are pretty resilient.

 

[olegren]

I think HF has some mineral additives that make it difficult by design to flush out. 1050 is a bit high but I have had much higher with plants that were healthy. It is the balance of nutrients that we are trying to fix. I talk about this all of the time and I forget who I have already preached to, sorry If I am being redundant. Plants can only take in nutrients balanced to the lowest element available. It is called Liebig's Law of the minimum. This is a very oversimplified visual to help understand. Basically every element above the Se is wasted because the plant does not have access to them. What is available to the plant may not be enough and the plant suffers deficiencies.

View attachment 1234207

This is the one displays nutrient interactions but is harder to understanding it all.

View attachment 1234210

Any how do the best you can to right the ship. Cannabis plants are pretty resilient.

Haha. I don't think you have pointed this out to me specifically, but I have seen the principle discussed in many places by experienced growers here, and I think it makes sense even if I clearly cannot sort it all out myself!

I ended up stopping after 2 gal on the last plant. She was around 940ppm after 1 gallon and giving about 640ppm by the second gallon's finish. The mix going in was 440ppm.

For the first two plants, I was flushing with RO water; which was foolish I'll admit. But it's interesting that I could never get them below about 170-230 ppm; which is right above 200 over what was going in. I dumped about 9 gallons into one of them! :smoking:

Same story with these more recent plants; only I wasted a lot less water. Both started around 1000ppm. I was giving both 440-470ppm half nute water. I gave the first 4 gallons. After the first 2 gal, she was 680 or so. After 2 more, she only came down to about 640.

For the next plant, I checked after 1 gal and found she was at 940ppm. After the second? 640ppm. I stopped there.

All that to say: Your remark about HF and this idea that there are some things you simply can't flush seems reinforced by the above. I hit a wall in all 4 cases; and it was right around 200ppm over whatever was going in whether I used 9 gallons or 2. That's a valuable lesson learned for me. In addition to Proph's wisdom on PPM monitoring, I have confidence I can avoid this altogether in my next grow. Also, I'm going to adjust my watering habits to A) Go to slight Runoff and B) Not let my plants sit in/re-absorb that runoff.

I'm going to top all four off with that great white and grab a bite to eat with the wife. I'll give you a reprieve from the constant questions for now - but will update this thread in a few days once they've started to dry out.

Again: Thank you!