Dutch passion auto blackberry leaf problem or not!

[Nuglet]

hi all on my 2nd attempt grow, 1st went ok but too many plants in the cab for sure. It was sold as a 6 plant system. So have halved it to 3 and one strain only.

This time auto blackberry I germed the seeds in rooters and all 3 came up then they went straight into net pots and all was well.

But then I had to go away last min for 10 days, at this point first set of true leaves had shown

I set my auto ph system up and ensured everything was running ok

Lighting

720 Watt, Switchable, 11-Way, 5w Diode Duo-Drive LED Light

18 litre DWC

3 air stones and recirculating pump

Drip feed heads

RO water

Formulex first 10 days whilst away

Then res dumped switched to flora duo soft A&B as per reccomended schedule on my return image of feeding schedule attached working with week 2 ratios

Roots looked good so turned off drip heads

Added

Calmag
Rhizo tonic half recommended amount

Whilst away looks like at least 500ml of ph down has gone into the DWC at a ratio of 75 percent water to 25 ph down via the auto ph doser

Lower leaves are necrotic but upward new growth looks ok

I'm LSTing

PH now steady at 5.8

Water temp 20 degrees C

Air temp 25 degrees C

Humidity 50%

PPM

Now 1200 was 1145 a week ago when I changed intial res after returning to base after 10 days.

Estimate added 80ml of PH down at 3:1 water ratio as above and calmag after initial res nutes which has caused the ppm to rise I presume

Thinking of letting it run for a few more days before next res change as all is stable - no more ph down at the mo (last 24hrs). Locked at 5.8

1 plant is a lot bigger than the other 2

Should I do anything specifically do you think? Remove necrotic leaves for example?

Wondered if necrosis was cal mag related or maybe water drips from drip heads as I wasn't there to monitor and correct

Wanted this grow to be text book not going so well so far!

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[Waira]

... damage looks like from a sudden shift in pH at some point,... mixed symptoms, and issues, though damage looks mostly P defc. related on the necrotic tissues,.. color break on leaves is odd, no idea there,... ( next time, try to load the pics right side up! ).... Hey @MedGrower , whatcha think? ....

 

[MedGrower]

Alright. I bite.

This looks like it has started as your typical Ca -defiency and pH flux doing the typical damage pattern that you can see. This seems to happen in hydroponics more often with these visible symptoms. It first starts as few rust spots there and there and later on as it progresses, turns more and more ugly and easily confused with P defiency symptoms. Judging from the given info about this growth I would say that it is Ca -defiency combined with damage from fluctuating pH.

We take combination of intense light from 720w LED, relatively high feed (1200 ppm!!!) and relatively low pH of the solution and you are bound to have problems like these. They might go away as the root system develops more and gets stronger overall (provided there will not be more pH swings) but its not optimal. We can observe that new growth is alright for the most part so I think these symptoms are in the past anyway.

Couple questions:

- What product are you using as pH down? I am honestly shocked to hear you have used half a litre of it in one grow already while I haven't used half a litre even in 2 years of active growing total.

- What is the ppm for your plain water? Is it really really hard or what? Hearing that you are having 1200 ppm sounds way too high feed for me. I have had plants twice the size of those with maximum 600 ppm feed required. I suspect you are way overfeeding them and that is contributing to your issue. I am pretty sure and I remember reading about that high EC / ppm can seriously hinder plants ability to uptake Ca.

- What brand of nutrients are you using on this grow? I would advice against running the solution at pH 5.8 if you are having this type of rusting symptoms. Perhaps something between 6.0 to 6.3 would serve you better if your nutrients are from a good brand that has them chelated. I run all my grows these days at 6.2 or 6.3 with good results just to avoid these issues.

I think following instructions for dialing up your feed properly when doing DWC would serve you well:

week1 : Water ppm + 100 ppm
week2 : Water ppm + 200 ppm
week3 : Water ppm + 300 ppm

Until this point the plant should be developed enough to make impact to the solution that is in the reservoir. At this point you need to take daily measurements and base the strength of the feed to that. If the ppm's go up, you need lesser feed (more water) and if the ppm's go down you need a bit stronger solution. Aim is to keep the level of ppm's at a point they won't fluctuate. When you manage to do this, usually also the pH will stay really stable.

 

[Nuglet]

... damage looks like from a sudden shift in pH at some point,... mixed symptoms, and issues, though damage looks mostly P defc. related on the necrotic tissues,.. color break on leaves is odd, no idea there,... ( next time, try to load the pics right side up! ).... Hey @MedGrower , whatcha think? ....

Yeh sorry about photos I uploaded straight from the phone which looked the right way round when I took em!

 

[Nuglet]

Alright. I bite.

This looks like it has started as your typical Ca -defiency and pH flux doing the typical damage pattern that you can see. This seems to happen in hydroponics more often with these visible symptoms. It first starts as few rust spots there and there and later on as it progresses, turns more and more ugly and easily confused with P defiency symptoms. Judging from the given info about this growth I would say that it is Ca -defiency combined with damage from fluctuating pH.

Couple questions:

- What product are you using as pH down? I am honestly shocked to hear you have used half a litre of it in one grow already while I haven't used half a litre even in 2 years of active growing total.

- What is the ppm for your plain water? Is it really really hard or what? Hearing that you are having 1200 ppm sounds way too high feed for me. I have had plants twice the size of those with maximum 600 ppm feed required. I suspect you are way overfeeding them and that is contributing to your issue. I am pretty sure and I remember reading about that high EC / ppm can seriously hinder plants ability to uptake Ca.

- What brand of nutrients are you using on this grow? I would advice against running the solution at pH 5.8 if you are having this type of rusting symptoms. Perhaps something between 6.0 to 6.3 would serve you better if your nutrients are from a good brand that has them chelated. I run all my grows these days at 6.2 or 6.3 with good results just to avoid these issues.

I think following instructions for dialing up your feed properly when doing DWC would serve you well:

week1 : Water ppm + 100 ppm
week2 : Water ppm + 200 ppm
week3 : Water ppm + 300 ppm

Until this point the plant should be developed enough to make impact to the solution that is in the reservoir. At this point you need to take daily measurements and base the strength of the feed to that. If the ppm's go up, you need lesser feed (more water) and if the ppm's go down you need a bit stronger solution. Aim is to keep the level of ppm's at a point they won't fluctuate. When you manage to do this, usually also the pH will stay really stable.

Thanks a lot - here's my replies

I'm using the actual GH ph down product in my American Marine auto doser - you mix it with 75 percent water. Was hesitant about It but as I was away for 10 days I ran out of options. So in reality used 125ml of ph down in 10 days and a small amount of up.

Water is RO only 15 ppm

Followed the flora duo schedule which i attached as a screen grab in post and used week 2 amounts

Before adding calmag and rhizo it was about 850 ppm which is in line with the chart prediction

I think it would settle about 6.2 without the ph down I thought I had to be at 5.8

It's been solid for 2 days now at 5.8 and we are a week since res change. Ppms dropped by 100 last night.

Plain RO is going in constantly on a drip feed there's a float switch keeping water an inch below net pots which are filled with hydration and original rapid rooter

Should I do a res change or leave for a bit do you think?

Also should I remove damaged leaves?

Thanks

 

[MedGrower]

I would pick out those damaged leaves from down below. Thing is that nutrient manufactures way overshoot their recommended feed schedules in hopes of you buing more and more nutes. Only Remo Nutrients has them suggested at realistic levels and I really do appriciate them for it. Interesting thing though that your ppm's has dropped overnight by 100. I mean those values sound super high. Regardless if you choose to lessen the feed, you better do it very gently and carefully because decreasing the ppm's too fast can seriously shock and harm you roots.

But if you continue to see the ppm's shooting down and you are certain it is not a measurement error, you just have really really hungry plants and you better keep up with them

 

[Nuglet]

I would pick out those damaged leaves from down below. Thing is that nutrient manufactures way overshoot their recommended feed schedules in hopes of you buing more and more nutes. Only Remo Nutrients has them suggested at realistic levels and I really do appriciate them for it. Interesting thing though that your ppm's has dropped overnight by 100. I mean those values sound super high. Regardless if you choose to lessen the feed, you better do it very gently and carefully because decreasing the ppm's too fast can seriously shock and harm you roots.

But if you continue to see the ppm's shooting down and you are certain it is not a measurement error, you just have really really hungry plants and you better keep up with them

Thanks I'm going to check readings again shortly, if I swap res out what would you recommend ratio wise to make the ppm change less stress stressful - would 50% of recommended be too much of a change?

Weird that one plant is so much bigger!

 

[MedGrower]

If you are right now having 1200 ppm in your reservoir, try lowering it to 1100 ppm first and see how it goes. Take measurements after a day has passed and see does it stay stable, go lower or up. Then if its not going down from there by itself at all, take it another 100 ppm down next day and repeat. Doing this too fast can seriously damage and shock your roots so take it easy. If you see the ppm's going down by themselves then you need to actually add more nutrients, or if they are always staying stable while the overall solution level is lowering then you know your feed is in golden zone where you'd want it to be.

Yeah there can be sometimes huge differences on phenotypes of same genetics. Sometimes some plants are less fortunate, they have something happen to then when they are young and most vulnarable or some other enviromental factor affecting certain gene activation that leads to different results. Hope this helps!

 

[Nuglet]

If you are right now having 1200 ppm in your reservoir, try lowering it to 1100 ppm first and see how it goes. Take measurements after a day has passed and see does it stay stable, go lower or up. Then if its not going down from there by itself at all, take it another 100 ppm down next day and repeat. Doing this too fast can seriously damage and shock your roots so take it easy. If you see the ppm's going down by themselves then you need to actually add more nutrients, or if they are always staying stable while the overall solution level is lowering then you know your feed is in golden zone where you'd want it to be.

Yeah there can be sometimes huge differences on phenotypes of same genetics. Sometimes some plants are less fortunate, they have something happen to then when they are young and most vulnarable or some other enviromental factor affecting certain gene activation that leads to different results. Hope this helps!

thankyou really appreciate you taking time out to advise

 

[Waira]

Solid, baby! Ahhhhh yeahhhhh...... ...MedG' , thanks for stackin' the clues in the House here- .... as you know, I'm not a hydro guy, and I hate arm-chair advising! A question: Ca-Mg should go in first, right? Both for better more stable pH buffering, and to avoid that occasional bad cross reaction with Ca and sulfates? ... see a few folks recently with sudden creation of flocculants in the res', using certain nute brands that really aren't formulated for hydro,.. (Nectar For the Gods was one,..)... basically it's making gypsum-
... Nug, hydro' is an entirely different world with chemistry, pH, availability and all that vs. soil/soilless,.... a look at these graphs, and you can see why,... hydro is walking the fine-line all the time! this is why things can go TARFU very quickly,..