Crossing auto strains = fully auto?

[Nelson]

They look a little suspect to me. Try to take a picture looking upward from the bottom of the plant to look for hanging balls right where the flower attaches to the stock. Itf there are hanging balls you got a male ora Herm.

Hey all, I have some new pics of the CS treated plant:

View attachment 104637 View attachment 104638 View attachment 104639 View attachment 104640

I'm not really sure of those formations. Are they pollen sacks or actual seed pods? They really look like seeds. They are on almost all budsites, although a couple of the top budsites look completely female (I had to prune the main cola, which had the 3 biggest and most ripe budsites). In any case I'm hoping for pollen to be released.

If I get some crosses, they are supposed to be F1 seeds and have hybrid vigor, am I wrong here?

I'll keep this updated

Best regards!

 

[Epic Genetics]

They look a little suspect to me. Try to take a picture looking upward from the bottom of the plant to look for hanging balls right where the flower attaches to the stock. Itf there are hanging balls you got a male ora Herm.

he had been treating it with C.S !

 

[sielm]

Yes, she should be producing male flowers, if the colloidal silver I made really worked. The plant comes from fem seed, and although the chance of a natural hermie is there, I think these formations must have developed because of the CS. Not sure if they are sacks or seed pods yet, I'll try to take a better look at them soon.

Thanks for passing by! Best regards

 

[mattinuk3]

Yeah I don't really think so. If you throw landrace equatorial in soilless and keep bumping up the dark cycle to 30h it will flower. Did this test a couple of times. I think it's day neutral outside.. yes. The strawberry papers shed a lot of light on the flowering hormones. The daylength on these guys are varied from like 4 hours to 72 hours. I don't have any references at my fingertips. I'd like to see evidence that the autoflowering "gene" is controlled by a single allele pair.

The evidence is that, as hobby breeders, we see the trait all the time. If it were controlled by two alleles, only about 1 in 16 plants at the F2 would autoflower. Hobby breeders would never see the trait, or at least not have a male and female at the same time with the small plant numbers we work with. Even on the scale of commercial breeding, 1 in 16 would be terrible odds for selection and would require huge facilities and hundreds of plants to find plants that not only autoflower, but have good bud structure, smells and potency.

Also, since some breeders who work with early flowering indicas see autoflowers pop up in the F1 in sizeable proportions, (mossy gets about 1/2 auto, and LBH once reported seeing 1/3 auto in the F1 from a cross with SSSDH) we can assume that it was a homozygous recessive autoflower crossed to a heterozygote semi- auto.

aa x AA will have 100% Aa offspring. If you inbreed Aa x Aa, 25% will be AA, 50% will be Aa, and 25% will be aa. This shows that, at the f2, 25% autoflower could be expected if it were one recessive allele that controlled the phenotype. This is pretty consistent with what people report, even though many people have a much smaller sample size than Gregor Mendel's 1000 plants.

When working with a small sample size and you want to know if your numbers are close enough to the expected ratios to safely conclude that it is only one allele, you could always do a Chi Square test. http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel4.htm This website is dealing with a 9:3:3:1 data spread, which is two genes segregating at the F2. This could represent, for example, crossing a bushy photoperiod to a single cola autoflower.

 

[mattinuk3]

Yeah I don't really think so. If you throw landrace equatorial in soilless and keep bumping up the dark cycle to 30h it will flower. Did this test a couple of times. I think it's day neutral outside.. yes. The strawberry papers shed a lot of light on the flowering hormones. The daylength on these guys are varied from like 4 hours to 72 hours. I don't have any references at my fingertips. I'd like to see evidence that the autoflowering "gene" is controlled by a single allele pair.

Also Cres is correct that equatorial plants are day neutral. At the equator the light cycle is always 12/12. Therefore, the plants can't use the fluctuating day/night cycle to tell which season it is. It is the same with corn, which, by the way has much more literature. Photoperiod response doesn't start in plants until about 8* North or South of the equator. Also in corn hybrid experiments with one of its wild relatives, zea diploperennis, scientists found that the gene for perennialism was controlled by one allele and behaved in simple mendellian ratios. This is a HUGE difference in the plants. Perennial zea species make shoots and little tuber like things that the plant regrows from the next spring, and don't need to sexually reproduce to keep living. Compared to corn, which is an annual and dies every year. This huge life cycle decision is controlled by one gene, so I can easily imagine that something as important to the plant life cycle as day neutral (autoflowering) vs photoperiodism can easily be controlled by one gene.

 

[GoAuto6]

Also Cres is correct that equatorial plants are day neutral. At the equator the light cycle is always 12/12. Therefore, the plants can't use the fluctuating day/night cycle to tell which season it is. It is the same with corn, which, by the way has much more literature. Photoperiod response doesn't start in plants until about 8* North or South of the equator. Also in corn hybrid experiments with one of its wild relatives, zea diploperennis, scientists found that the gene for perennialism was controlled by one allele and behaved in simple mendellian ratios. This is a HUGE difference in the plants. Perennial zea species make shoots and little tuber like things that the plant regrows from the next spring, and don't need to sexually reproduce to keep living. Compared to corn, which is an annual and dies every year. This huge life cycle decision is controlled by one gene, so I can easily imagine that something as important to the plant life cycle as day neutral (autoflowering) vs photoperiodism can easily be controlled by one gene.

thats stimulating info i have sent a friend request i hope you accept i believe you have info i want to be privy to.

 

[drewbot]

Also Cres is correct that equatorial plants are day neutral. At the equator the light cycle is always 12/12. Therefore, the plants can't use the fluctuating day/night cycle to tell which season it is. It is the same with corn, which, by the way has much more literature. Photoperiod response doesn't start in plants until about 8* North or South of the equator. Also in corn hybrid experiments with one of its wild relatives, zea diploperennis, scientists found that the gene for perennialism was controlled by one allele and behaved in simple mendellian ratios. This is a HUGE difference in the plants. Perennial zea species make shoots and little tuber like things that the plant regrows from the next spring, and don't need to sexually reproduce to keep living. Compared to corn, which is an annual and dies every year. This huge life cycle decision is controlled by one gene, so I can easily imagine that something as important to the plant life cycle as day neutral (autoflowering) vs photoperiodism can easily be controlled by one gene.

Very nice. I would like to see a member here drag some notes out and do a chi test. Or he'll just throw some observables out and let 'us' crunch it. I do believe the truth is in the numbers but I don't have them. I can say from growing my 'collectables' that I''ve found more than one factor to initiate the flowering process. The other phenomenon I could not explain... and correct me if I'm wrong.. is that most breeders mention that after selfing for 6 generations everything becomes auto. If true then it would break the traditional mendellian rules for one gene. Traditionally cited examples being sickle cell anemia and arpkd.

 

[cres]

From Zy...

My hypnoses is
LHY late elongated hypocotyl gene
and/or
CCA1 Circadian clock associated 1 gene
and/or
TOC1 Timing of CAB expression 1 gene
is responsible for flowering in Day-Neutral Cannabis, aka Auto-Flowering Cannabis.

I base this on the genetic work that has bend dun on Rosales.

The specie Cannabis is in the Cannabaceae family, which is in the order Rosales.

The dominant late elongated hypocotyl (lhy) disrupted circadian clock regulation of gene expression and leaf movements and caused flowering to occur independently of photoperiod. LHY was shown to encode a MYB DNA-binding protein. Increased LHY expression from a transgene caused the endogenous gene to be expressed at a constant level, suggesting that LHY was part of a feedback circuit that regulated its own expression. Thus, constant expression of LHY disrupts several distinct circadian rhythms and LHY may be closely associated with the central oscillator of the circadian clock. Of the central circadian clock genes, homologs of LHY and TOC1 were present in our EST libraries and GDR, respectively, but CCA1 was lacking from Rosaceae databases.


The list of circadian clock genes

• Gene, At locus tag, Name, Biological function
• LHY, AT1G01060, Late elongated hypocotyl, Myb domain TF
• CCA1, AT2G46830, Circadian clock associated 1, Myb domain TF
• TOC1, AT5G61380, Timing of CAB expression 1, Pseudo-response regulator
• LUX, AT3G46640, Lux arrythmo, Myb TF
• ELF4, AT2G40080, Early flowering 4, Unknown
• GI, AT1G22770, Gigantea, Unknown
• TIC, AT3G22380, Time for coffee, Unknown
• PRR3, AT5G60100, Pseudo response regulator 3, Pseudo-response regulator
• PRR5, AT5G24470, Pseudo response regulator 5, Pseudo-response regulator
• PRR7, AT5G02810, Pseudo response regulator 7, Pseudo-response regulator
• PRR9, AT2G46790, Pseudo response regulator 9, Pseudo-response regulator
• ELF6, AT5G04240, Early flowering 6, Jumonji/zinc finger-class TF

International Society of Auto-Flowering Cannabis
​

 

[sielm]

All of that is awesome info, thanks all for sharing, and keep them coming! +reps! (as much as I can give)

Best regards!

 

[sielm]

The treated plant is reaching the end of his/her life, as she reached 81 days today. There are pollen sacks on almost every budsite, and even some minimal new growth on the lower stems - which are sprouting mini pollen sacks too. My guess is that the CS has reversed each treated budsite, and is somehow affecting new growth too. It's not impossible that this hermie/reversal was caused because of stress though. The thing is that the pollen held in the sacks might not be viable, because I don't see any signs of seeds developing on this plant or on the other plants. I'll let her live for a little longer and then I'll chop and dissect her to look for selfed seeds.

This experiment may be a failure (I'm thinking about a 30% success/70% failure ratio, but what do I know...) but if I get seeds, selfed or crossed, I'll test them and check about the autoflowering feat (and be careful about any hermies!). Here are some pics taken today: