Auto topping thread,pushing the auto limits;)

Good day growers im a master photo and auto grower.but my passion is with autoflower seeds.i been on a mission for 5 years growing now trying diffrent methods of training on autos to see what they truly behold.truth is autos aint no diffrent to a normal plant other than they flower on there own.u can top lst supercrop and defol autos with monster results if done at the correct time.oviously every plant is diffrent so always use the seed info as a rough guide and a short plant can yield just as much as a tall plant in this thread i will show u all along the way of the true limits of autos and there true potential as i grow them for u all to see.also if ur an auto grower who likes to push the limits,do speak up and all pics of ur autos and talk and all questions welcome on pushing the auto limits.here a few examples of the results achived topping an auto young followed by later lst.few heavy defols along the way ,gives u an army of dominant colas and a big heavy yield.and a beautiful plant.here is automazar topped and lstd

 

[davisgirl]

I’ve been having horrible luck with topping my autos but I KNOW I’m doing something wrong. With Waira’s help I’ve identified a BIG problem that’s been effecting my plants - my well water. Now that I have started using an RO system, my photos seem to be doing much better. So, I’m wanting to start over. Basically, do a complete reset of what I’ve been doing; to see if I can get the kind of results that others are getting. So, I’ve got some questions about some of the changes I’m planning. Hopefully @autobeast or @Mañ'O'Green or one of you auto experts can give me some advice. Here goes...

1. SOIL - what kind of soil do autos (I know I’m generalizing here) like? I mean, do they tolerate a heavily amended organic soil that’s really rich in nutrients and biology. I ended up doing expanded version of the Coots Mix, with the help of Tad Hussey of KIS Organics. It closely mirrors their “water only biochar soil.” It’s not a perfect copy as I don’t have access to their compost or worm castings but it’s 95% the same and follows their proportioning and uses their inputs. I know it’ll be good for photos but I’m curious if it might be too hot OR not rich enough for autos; since the Mix was designed for growing photos.

Here’s my mix that makes 10.5 gallons of soil:

Base-
3.75 gallons Lambert Canadian Peat Moss
1.25 gallons of high-end store bought compost and EWC at a 2:1 ratio
2.5 gallons Pumice
3 cups malted barley
0.5 Cups Kelp Meal
0.5 Cups Neem/Karanja Meal (3:1)
0.5 Cups Crustacean Meal
0.5 Cups Alfalfa meal
1 Cup Insect Frass
0.5 Cups Feather Meal
0.5 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1.5 US Teaspoons Yucca Extract (wetting agent for peat moss)
3 Cups Biochar inoculated w/ homemade Lacto Bacillus, Recharge and Mycorhizal fungi.

Mineral additions-
4 Cups Glacial Rock Dust
4 Cups Basalt
4 Cups Gypsum
4 Cups Oyster Shell Flour

Additional inputs-
0.25 Cup Soft Rock Phosphate
0.25 Cup High N Bat Guano
0.25 Cup High P Bat Guano
1 Cup Leonardite
0.5 US Teaspoon Great White Myco
1 US Teaspoon Recharge

Leaving this to cure for 3-4 weeks. While it’s a long list of ingredients it’s very balanced and not particularly “hot” from what I’ve been told.

Question is: How do you think it’ll work for autos? I’m really wanting to get off bottled nutrients if possible and cut it to an absolute minimum.

2. Lighting- my indoor growing has been under a 600 (true) watt LED at 3000k. But I currently have 2 photos that just went to flower under that light on 12/12. I’m working on getting another light with the intention of having a “veg” tent and a “flower” tent. While I’m mulling over my only other light choice is a 5 bulb, 4-foot long T5 fixture with 6500k bulbs in it. Now, I’ve started some autos under that light and then moved them outside after about 3 weeks; but I’ve never left them under it any longer. So, what is the story with autos and light; and would you recommend waiting until I get a new light or wound you go ahead and pop some seeds, veg it under the fluorescents for a few weeks and THEN toss it into the flower tent under 600w on 12/12?
I mean, do Autos have spectrum preferences (if so, what are they?) and/or will they veg under a bright 600w 3000k bulb even though they’re only getting it 12 hours a day? I know I CAN do this but how will they react - will I just get low Bud production or some larfy buds? I’d really appreciate some opinions on what to do here, given my situation as I layed out.

I can get a veg light put together pretty dang quick but HLG is about to release (next few weeks) the Version 2 of the quantum boards I’d like to use. They have about 10% efficacy improvement over the V1 that’s currently available. I’d really like to wait on the new boards but I’d also like to pop a few new beans. As usual, I’m looking to y’all to help me ‘have my bud and smoke it too,’ as it were. Lol!

3. Strains- I know that the genetics of the autos you grow play a big role in success and after reading Man O’ Green’s comments recently about vigorous growers doing better with topping, I wondered if I’m choosing the right genetics. I’m just finishing a Dinafem XXL Cheese Auto and a DP Auto Ultimate that really disappointed me with their small sizes. Again, this is probably a result of the water I was using. But, are these XXL type strains from breeders like Dinafem and Dutch Passion the types of genetics that ought to be perfect for topping?



Sorry for the super long post and I hope it’s ok to include it in this thread but I’m TRYING to implement @autobeast’s methodology and get some of the fantastic results achieved by folks in this thread. I’ve come to believe that the stunted results that I’ve had when I topped my autos before (with autobeast’s guidance) is related to my crappy water but possibly to the various FoxFarm and other soils I’ve tried. So, I’m re-examining the nuances of growing and maximizing autos. If it’s not appropriate for inclusion here, I’ll move it to an independent thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this!

I feel your pain with the poor water quality issues. They also caused my major hiccup on my first grow, now resolved and marching steadily toward harvest.

Not at all familiar with organic growing but I stumbled on this thread recently ... never have I seen such beautiful plants. Might be an excellent place to start. Good luck! https://www.autoflower.org/threads/undisturbedorganix-new-to-this-forum.68218/

AFN also has a dedicated organic section: https://www.autoflower.org/forums/organic-growing-discussion.246/

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

I’ve been having horrible luck with topping my autos but I KNOW I’m doing something wrong. With Waira’s help I’ve identified a BIG problem that’s been effecting my plants - my well water. Now that I have started using an RO system, my photos seem to be doing much better. So, I’m wanting to start over. Basically, do a complete reset of what I’ve been doing; to see if I can get the kind of results that others are getting. So, I’ve got some questions about some of the changes I’m planning. Hopefully @autobeast or @Mañ'O'Green or one of you auto experts can give me some advice. Here goes...

1. SOIL - what kind of soil do autos (I know I’m generalizing here) like? I mean, do they tolerate a heavily amended organic soil that’s really rich in nutrients and biology. I ended up doing expanded version of the Coots Mix, with the help of Tad Hussey of KIS Organics. It closely mirrors their “water only biochar soil.” It’s not a perfect copy as I don’t have access to their compost or worm castings but it’s 95% the same and follows their proportioning and uses their inputs. I know it’ll be good for photos but I’m curious if it might be too hot OR not rich enough for autos; since the Mix was designed for growing photos.

Here’s my mix that makes 10.5 gallons of soil:

Base-
3.75 gallons Lambert Canadian Peat Moss
1.25 gallons of high-end store bought compost and EWC at a 2:1 ratio
2.5 gallons Pumice
3 cups malted barley
0.5 Cups Kelp Meal
0.5 Cups Neem/Karanja Meal (3:1)
0.5 Cups Crustacean Meal
0.5 Cups Alfalfa meal
1 Cup Insect Frass
0.5 Cups Feather Meal
0.5 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1.5 US Teaspoons Yucca Extract (wetting agent for peat moss)
3 Cups Biochar inoculated w/ homemade Lacto Bacillus, Recharge and Mycorhizal fungi.

Mineral additions-
4 Cups Glacial Rock Dust
4 Cups Basalt
4 Cups Gypsum
4 Cups Oyster Shell Flour

Additional inputs-
0.25 Cup Soft Rock Phosphate
0.25 Cup High N Bat Guano
0.25 Cup High P Bat Guano
1 Cup Leonardite
0.5 US Teaspoon Great White Myco
1 US Teaspoon Recharge

Leaving this to cure for 3-4 weeks. While it’s a long list of ingredients it’s very balanced and not particularly “hot” from what I’ve been told.

Question is: How do you think it’ll work for autos? I’m really wanting to get off bottled nutrients if possible and cut it to an absolute minimum.

2. Lighting- my indoor growing has been under a 600 (true) watt LED at 3000k. But I currently have 2 photos that just went to flower under that light on 12/12. I’m working on getting another light with the intention of having a “veg” tent and a “flower” tent. While I’m mulling over my only other light choice is a 5 bulb, 4-foot long T5 fixture with 6500k bulbs in it. Now, I’ve started some autos under that light and then moved them outside after about 3 weeks; but I’ve never left them under it any longer. So, what is the story with autos and light; and would you recommend waiting until I get a new light or wound you go ahead and pop some seeds, veg it under the fluorescents for a few weeks and THEN toss it into the flower tent under 600w on 12/12?
I mean, do Autos have spectrum preferences (if so, what are they?) and/or will they veg under a bright 600w 3000k bulb even though they’re only getting it 12 hours a day? I know I CAN do this but how will they react - will I just get low Bud production or some larfy buds? I’d really appreciate some opinions on what to do here, given my situation as I layed out.

I can get a veg light put together pretty dang quick but HLG is about to release (next few weeks) the Version 2 of the quantum boards I’d like to use. They have about 10% efficacy improvement over the V1 that’s currently available. I’d really like to wait on the new boards but I’d also like to pop a few new beans. As usual, I’m looking to y’all to help me ‘have my bud and smoke it too,’ as it were. Lol!

3. Strains- I know that the genetics of the autos you grow play a big role in success and after reading Man O’ Green’s comments recently about vigorous growers doing better with topping, I wondered if I’m choosing the right genetics. I’m just finishing a Dinafem XXL Cheese Auto and a DP Auto Ultimate that really disappointed me with their small sizes. Again, this is probably a result of the water I was using. But, are these XXL type strains from breeders like Dinafem and Dutch Passion the types of genetics that ought to be perfect for topping?



Sorry for the super long post and I hope it’s ok to include it in this thread but I’m TRYING to implement @autobeast’s methodology and get some of the fantastic results achieved by folks in this thread. I’ve come to believe that the stunted results that I’ve had when I topped my autos before (with autobeast’s guidance) is related to my crappy water but possibly to the various FoxFarm and other soils I’ve tried. So, I’m re-examining the nuances of growing and maximizing autos. If it’s not appropriate for inclusion here, I’ll move it to an independent thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this!

Well you may have all of the bases covered in that soil mix but how do you know? How are you mixing it? 4 oz. of bat guano in 8 gallons of material is going to be hard to mix evenly. What is the PH? A month in my organic soil making experience is way too short. I used to let my live soil sit for over a year or more. It was in contact with my regular garden soil and when the worms moved into the top 2 inches it was ready.You can eliminate the guesswork by sending a sample to be tested. That said the best cannabis in terms of taste I have grown was grown in live soil. The biggest yield was in DWC although I may be challenging that with my current grow. @autobeast covers the soil he uses in the beginning of this thread. I recommend you read it.

What was wrong with your well water? I don't do anything other than the light schedule and training methods to grow autos vs photos. Autos can do well with less DLI than photos. I am in hydro and it is a simple matter to feed a balanced salt regimen and easy to fix a deficiency or excess. I don't have those problems often because I feed properly balanced to start.

 

[EvilScotsman]

I’ve been having horrible luck with topping my autos but I KNOW I’m doing something wrong. With Waira’s help I’ve identified a BIG problem that’s been effecting my plants - my well water. Now that I have started using an RO system, my photos seem to be doing much better. So, I’m wanting to start over. Basically, do a complete reset of what I’ve been doing; to see if I can get the kind of results that others are getting. So, I’ve got some questions about some of the changes I’m planning. Hopefully @autobeast or @Mañ'O'Green or one of you auto experts can give me some advice. Here goes...

1. SOIL - what kind of soil do autos (I know I’m generalizing here) like? I mean, do they tolerate a heavily amended organic soil that’s really rich in nutrients and biology. I ended up doing expanded version of the Coots Mix, with the help of Tad Hussey of KIS Organics. It closely mirrors their “water only biochar soil.” It’s not a perfect copy as I don’t have access to their compost or worm castings but it’s 95% the same and follows their proportioning and uses their inputs. I know it’ll be good for photos but I’m curious if it might be too hot OR not rich enough for autos; since the Mix was designed for growing photos.

Here’s my mix that makes 10.5 gallons of soil:

Base-
3.75 gallons Lambert Canadian Peat Moss
1.25 gallons of high-end store bought compost and EWC at a 2:1 ratio
2.5 gallons Pumice
3 cups malted barley
0.5 Cups Kelp Meal
0.5 Cups Neem/Karanja Meal (3:1)
0.5 Cups Crustacean Meal
0.5 Cups Alfalfa meal
1 Cup Insect Frass
0.5 Cups Feather Meal
0.5 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1.5 US Teaspoons Yucca Extract (wetting agent for peat moss)
3 Cups Biochar inoculated w/ homemade Lacto Bacillus, Recharge and Mycorhizal fungi.

Mineral additions-
4 Cups Glacial Rock Dust
4 Cups Basalt
4 Cups Gypsum
4 Cups Oyster Shell Flour

Additional inputs-
0.25 Cup Soft Rock Phosphate
0.25 Cup High N Bat Guano
0.25 Cup High P Bat Guano
1 Cup Leonardite
0.5 US Teaspoon Great White Myco
1 US Teaspoon Recharge

Leaving this to cure for 3-4 weeks. While it’s a long list of ingredients it’s very balanced and not particularly “hot” from what I’ve been told.

Question is: How do you think it’ll work for autos? I’m really wanting to get off bottled nutrients if possible and cut it to an absolute minimum.

2. Lighting- my indoor growing has been under a 600 (true) watt LED at 3000k. But I currently have 2 photos that just went to flower under that light on 12/12. I’m working on getting another light with the intention of having a “veg” tent and a “flower” tent. While I’m mulling over my only other light choice is a 5 bulb, 4-foot long T5 fixture with 6500k bulbs in it. Now, I’ve started some autos under that light and then moved them outside after about 3 weeks; but I’ve never left them under it any longer. So, what is the story with autos and light; and would you recommend waiting until I get a new light or wound you go ahead and pop some seeds, veg it under the fluorescents for a few weeks and THEN toss it into the flower tent under 600w on 12/12?
I mean, do Autos have spectrum preferences (if so, what are they?) and/or will they veg under a bright 600w 3000k bulb even though they’re only getting it 12 hours a day? I know I CAN do this but how will they react - will I just get low Bud production or some larfy buds? I’d really appreciate some opinions on what to do here, given my situation as I layed out.

I can get a veg light put together pretty dang quick but HLG is about to release (next few weeks) the Version 2 of the quantum boards I’d like to use. They have about 10% efficacy improvement over the V1 that’s currently available. I’d really like to wait on the new boards but I’d also like to pop a few new beans. As usual, I’m looking to y’all to help me ‘have my bud and smoke it too,’ as it were. Lol!

3. Strains- I know that the genetics of the autos you grow play a big role in success and after reading Man O’ Green’s comments recently about vigorous growers doing better with topping, I wondered if I’m choosing the right genetics. I’m just finishing a Dinafem XXL Cheese Auto and a DP Auto Ultimate that really disappointed me with their small sizes. Again, this is probably a result of the water I was using. But, are these XXL type strains from breeders like Dinafem and Dutch Passion the types of genetics that ought to be perfect for topping?



Sorry for the super long post and I hope it’s ok to include it in this thread but I’m TRYING to implement @autobeast’s methodology and get some of the fantastic results achieved by folks in this thread. I’ve come to believe that the stunted results that I’ve had when I topped my autos before (with autobeast’s guidance) is related to my crappy water but possibly to the various FoxFarm and other soils I’ve tried. So, I’m re-examining the nuances of growing and maximizing autos. If it’s not appropriate for inclusion here, I’ll move it to an independent thread.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this![/QUOTE

l

Hiya buddy I'm not a soil grower but if your struggling then you're best to simple things down. I've been growing for a couple years now and the biggest healthiest plants I've ever seen were grown in nothing but composted horse manure and lime with only a PK booster added in bloom. And by big I mean 5 kilos. Your putting it on a pedestal and over thinking things mate.
If your copying a pros mix without a good knowledge of what does what then you're best to copy it exactly, gram for gram. These guys are balancing nutrients perfectly and slight deviations can cause really big problems. For example, having too high an N content will block out just about everything else in the soil.
Auto ultimate is probably the biggest auto known to man, I love growing them cause their so resilient against pretty much every adverse condition you can throw at them. It's the strain I'd recommend to anyone who was struggling. If your not getting a decent result from them then you need to dial in your potting skills before you spend any more money on lighting.
This is why I grow hydro, regardless of the problem you just empty the res and refill it with half strength nutes. Couldn't handle having to know what 45 different materials do and how they react with each other over time. Even thinking about organics gives me brain damage lol

 

[EvilScotsman]

Ahh thanks for the edit whoever that was.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

Ahh thanks for the edit whoever that was.

I thought I had the notice box checked hummm Anny how - "Even thinking about organics gives me brain damage" Now that there is funny

 

[EvilScotsman]

I thought I had the notice box checked hummm Anny how - "Even thinking about organics gives me brain damage" Now that there is funny

Well It does mate. If I need N I get a bottle of N, if I need P I get a bottle of P, I couldn't handle thinking right shit I need some extra N, I better go get some Epsom salts, mix it with bat shit, add 73% to the 4th power of 17 botanical herbs and spices, leave it for 6 months then scrape the bacteria off the top, cultivate that, feed it to worms then collect the worm shit to use it as a top dressing.
That's what I see when I people post organic stuff lol. Waaaaaay outa my skill level.
I'm a hydro grower mate, just a monkey with a magic number stick.

 

[Lysergik_kid]

Sour Livers stretch almost done.

 

[DTOM420]

Hiya buddy I'm not a soil grower but if your struggling then you're best to simple things down. I've been growing for a couple years now and the biggest healthiest plants I've ever seen were grown in nothing but composted horse manure and lime with only a PK booster added in bloom. And by big I mean 5 kilos. Your putting it on a pedestal and over thinking things mate.
If your copying a pros mix without a good knowledge of what does what then you're best to copy it exactly, gram for gram. These guys are balancing nutrients perfectly and slight deviations can cause really big problems. For example, having too high an N content will block out just about everything else in the soil.
Auto ultimate is probably the biggest auto known to man, I love growing them cause their so resilient against pretty much every adverse condition you can throw at them. It's the strain I'd recommend to anyone who was struggling. If your not getting a decent result from them then you need to dial in your potting skills before you spend any more money on lighting.
This is why I grow hydro, regardless of the problem you just empty the res and refill it with half strength nutes. Couldn't handle having to know what 45 different materials do and how they react with each other over time. Even thinking about organics gives me brain damage lol

Thanks for the great reply, brother!

So, on that new mix that I listed the ingredients for. I mixed it precisely the way the the designer directed and with his supervision - he’s been helping me via email. He sells several highly touted, water only bagged soils. Unfortunately, shipping those bags of soil to me is prohibitively expensive. He’s a incredible guy that works very hard to educate organic growers and despite his business selling soil and amendments. he’s willing to share his knowledge and his recipes freely. He just said that he doesn’t know much about autos, specifically, and that his experience is with photos. So, I wanted to see if you Auto topping experts could let me know if autos had different soil or nutrient needs or preferences than photos? Like, do they prefer a loaded or ‘hot’ soil or whether they dislike a hot soil?

I normally (past few grows) plant my sprouted seeds in a very low nutrient soil that has FoxFarm Ocean Forest under it and around it. So that, as the roots grow and the plant matures, it can reach the nutrient rich soil. I use Vivosun grow bags.

I realize you’re a hydro grower but maybe you can address the nutritional needs and preferences? Or, is it just a strain-specific thing; where some need lots of feeding and others don’t, like with photoperiods? Obviously there’s a degree of difference between strains and phenos. I’m just looking for any glaring generalities.

My issues have been strictly water related. Now that the RO system is in place, things are just fine. No more issues. Really, despite my “issues” I’ve still grown some great soil bud; even with autos. My biggest struggle has been when I topped autos. Despite topping within the 14-20 day window and at the 4th node, it seems to stunt the plant. When I don’t top and only LST, my plants get bigger and seem to produce much better. Maybe it’s all been related to the water quality; but I’m trying to figure it out. The next run will see. I need a different light to set up another tent because I have some big photos that will be flowering for another couple months. I’d like to start some more autos and keep playing with the topping technique.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@DTOM420 It is very generous of the organic soil vendor to help you out like he has. It still remains that you do not in reality know what the soil nutrient availability is until you have it tested at a soil lab. So how would you make adjustments to the ratios if you do not know what your starting numbers are? Topping at the fifth node is too late in MPE.

 

[DTOM420]

Well you may have all of the bases covered in that soil mix but how do you know? How are you mixing it? 4 oz. of bat guano in 8 gallons of material is going to be hard to mix evenly. What is the PH? A month in my organic soil making experience is way too short. I used to let my live soil sit for over a year or more. It was in contact with my regular garden soil and when the worms moved into the top 2 inches it was ready.You can eliminate the guesswork by sending a sample to be tested. That said the best cannabis in terms of taste I have grown was grown in live soil. The biggest yield was in DWC although I may be challenging that with my current grow. @autobeast covers the soil he uses in the beginning of this thread. I recommend you read it.

What was wrong with your well water? I don't do anything other than the light schedule and training methods to grow autos vs photos. Autos can do well with less DLI than photos. I am in hydro and it is a simple matter to feed a balanced salt regimen and easy to fix a deficiency or excess. I don't have those problems often because I feed properly balanced to start.

Thank for the reply MoG!!

Some of what you mentioned, I addressed in my reply to the Scotsman, above. The water issue.....ugh. I can’t tell you what’s in the water coming out of the well but it sure doesn’t taste good. It tests out at around 1025ppm and after several water companies tested the hardness of the water. I know that there’s about 150ppm of calcium in that 1025 - what the other 875ppm is, is anybody’s guess. I’m hoping to get it tested soon. We’ve never drank it because it doesn’t taste good and I think there’s a lot of salt in it, just from the taste; but, again, I’m not sure.

The result is that the water was causing a buildup in the soil. One pot I tested the runoff from was around 8600ppm! This manifested itself as all sorts of different nutrient deficiency symptoms. Of course, once Waira and I realized this buildup was happening, the symptoms could have been from toxicities as well. So, I got a big RO system and flushed the plants until the runoff was down to 800 or less and now they’re all looking good and eating and drinking as they should.

So, the “issues” I was having wasn’t due to a ‘black thumb’ or the wrong soil. Lol! I don’t know why the problems seemed so exacerbated in the indoor grow vs. my outdoor grows but it was. Thinking back, though, I never did get the size I expected from a number of plants. I think all of it’s water related. My plants that are recovering are doing incredible with the cleaned water. I can only imagine what it’ll be like when I get to do a full run using nothing but this RO water.

I’m tired of bottled nutes and want to go more organic. So, I’m using this opportunity to try full organic, water-only for the next round.