Indoor Army of Dankness - Bruce's Blueberries

[Bruce Campbell]

Thx @Mañ'O'Green and @Lil Dab !

Yeah - the biggest challenge for me as a new grower was 'cutting through all the noise' (as I'm sure it is for all new growers). I love me some scientific method, I agree with the scientific method, but...I'm an engineer. So, I'm usually more concerned about the cost (i.e., effort) / benefit ratio between options. And, I knew there would be variance no matter how much of the grow I tried to control and/or optimize.

I forgot to explain the 2 x std dev numbers above, which is the (nominal) 65% confidence interval based on the variance in the measured results. It should mean that I have a 65% chance of being within the (average +/- 2 x standard deviations) for other grows under the same range of conditions.

For example, using those last numbers for Grows #3 and #5 - 65% of other grows should yield 7.6 +/- 2.7 oz (=7.6 oz +/- 35%) for this strain and feed formula. As an illustration - that means I'd need whatever future 'fancy new expensive supplement everyone's talking about' to improve my yield by 35% or more in order to convince me that it's worth it and not just noise in the data.

The solution is to reduce / confirm the variance through a combination of 1) additional trials and 2) stricter control over more of the grow parameters.

My overall pipe dream would be to farm out #1 to the community and aggregate results in order to avoid #2. May still have too much variance for most things, but could maybe be used to at least get representative per-strain numbers for the breeders on the site, etc.

Perchance to dream - ay, there's the rub...

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

You weren't around to see @420autoflower grow some amazing plants. These plants and his method will blow your stats into oblivion.

It is not just nutrition but method and skill level is integral to the results.

Indoor - Growing Scrog

Here are some results and a yield comparison from my last grow. There was not only a double increase in yield with scrogging but also much higher quality material from it all growing on top of the canopy. A naturally grown ILGM Bruce Banner auto that only had her main top bent over and heavy...

www.autoflower.org

We can all learn from this Master Grower. I am just too lazy to do that much work.

 

[Lil Dab]

Thx @Mañ'O'Green and @Lil Dab !

Yeah - the biggest challenge for me as a new grower was 'cutting through all the noise' (as I'm sure it is for all new growers). I love me some scientific method, I agree with the scientific method, but...I'm an engineer. So, I'm usually more concerned about the cost (i.e., effort) / benefit ratio between options. And, I knew there would be variance no matter how much of the grow I tried to control and/or optimize.

I forgot to explain the 2 x std dev numbers above, which is the (nominal) 65% confidence interval based on the variance in the measured results. It should mean that I have a 65% chance of being within the (average +/- 2 x standard deviations) for other grows under the same range of conditions.

For example, using those last numbers for Grows #3 and #5 - 65% of other grows should yield 7.6 +/- 2.7 oz (=7.6 oz +/- 35%) for this strain and feed formula. As an illustration - that means I'd need whatever future 'fancy new expensive supplement everyone's talking about' to improve my yield by 35% or more in order to convince me that it's worth it and not just noise in the data.

The solution is to reduce / confirm the variance through a combination of 1) additional trials and 2) stricter control over more of the grow parameters.

My overall pipe dream would be to farm out #1 to the community and aggregate results in order to avoid #2. May still have too much variance for most things, but could maybe be used to at least get representative per-strain numbers for the breeders on the site, etc.

Perchance to dream - ay, there's the rub...

View attachment 1696583

No problem well earned curious if you have a feed schedule you’d be willing to share? I also use MC 2 part and always curious what others are using also which formula part an are you using? I have the newer 8 % N formula instead of the old 5

 

[Bruce Campbell]

No problem well earned curious if you have a feed schedule you’d be willing to share? I also use MC 2 part and always curious what others are using also which formula part an are you using? I have the newer 8 % N formula instead of the old 5

1) First few grows: For veg, I used MC 2-part (the old 5% N formula) and a potassium silicate (Bloom City Silica Boost) for pH adjustment. For bloom, I then used MC 2-part + MC's Sweet Candy.

2) For later grows (i.e., once I ran out of MC 2-part), I used whatever I had laying around to get the same elemental ppm concentrations.

My target ppm concentrations (at least, for first few grows) are in this earlier post:

Indoor - Army of Dankness - Bruce's Blueberries

Bruce Campbell's Perpetual Ongoing Optimization Growathon

www.autoflower.org

3) I'm hesitant to post actual weights used (g/gal) since MC changed the formula again - I don't want people to use those without adjusting for their new formulation.

IMO, everyone should be calculating out, managing, and reporting feed rates using elemental ppm levels instead of brand-specific or product-specific weights. This is how they do it in scientific literature and research articles to make the data universal instead of brand-specific.

Elemental PPMs are essentially just "the number of atoms (of N, or P, or K, etc)" per million atoms of water for each element. It's basically just a measure of concentration. But, since atoms of different elements are different sizes, there are some adjustment factors to be made in the conversions for each element.

Here's an old article I wrote to walk people through the math / concepts - but it's a bit dense:

Nutrients - How-to Calculate Elemental PPMs

Introduction This guide will walk you through how-to calculate elemental PPMs in a nutrient mix. Elemental PPMs are the weight ratio of each element in a nutrient solution to the overall weight of that solution, expressed as parts per million. This is not the same as TDS (Total Dissolved...

www.autoflower.org

4) If you want, I can PM a cleaned-up version of the spreadsheet I use to do my calculations.

(Forum won't let me attach Excel files for security reasons, and I don't want to post a link to my google drive account for privacy reasons.)

But - use at your own risk. It's not necessarily user friendly, you may need to adjust some conversion factors for your products, etc.

 

[Lil Dab]

1) First few grows: For veg, I used MC 2-part (the old 5% N formula) and a potassium silicate (Bloom City Silica Boost) for pH adjustment. For bloom, I then used MC 2-part + MC's Sweet Candy.

2) For later grows (i.e., once I ran out of MC 2-part), I used whatever I had laying around to get the same elemental ppm concentrations.

My target ppm concentrations (at least, for first few grows) are in this earlier post:

Indoor - Army of Dankness - Bruce's Blueberries

Bruce Campbell's Perpetual Ongoing Optimization Growathon

www.autoflower.org

3) I'm hesitant to post actual weights used (g/gal) since MC changed the formula again - I don't want people to use those without adjusting for their new formulation.

IMO, everyone should be calculating out, managing, and reporting feed rates using elemental ppm levels instead of brand-specific or product-specific weights. This is how they do it in scientific literature and research articles to make the data universal instead of brand-specific.

Elemental PPMs are essentially just "the number of atoms (of N, or P, or K, etc)" per million atoms of water for each element. It's basically just a measure of concentration. But, since atoms of different elements are different sizes, there are some adjustment factors to be made in the conversions for each element.

Here's an old article I wrote to walk people through the math / concepts - but it's a bit dense:

Nutrients - How-to Calculate Elemental PPMs

Introduction This guide will walk you through how-to calculate elemental PPMs in a nutrient mix. Elemental PPMs are the weight ratio of each element in a nutrient solution to the overall weight of that solution, expressed as parts per million. This is not the same as TDS (Total Dissolved...

www.autoflower.org

4) If you want, I can PM a cleaned-up version of the spreadsheet I use to do my calculations.

(Forum won't let me attach Excel files for security reasons, and I don't want to post a link to my google drive account for privacy reasons.)

But - use at your own risk. It's not necessarily user friendly, you may need to adjust some conversion factors for your products, etc.

Ahh no worries and I fully understand I’ll go back through your journal more throughly and compare numbers. I have one of MOG’s spreadsheets modified for the 8N formula that I use

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Ahh no worries and I fully understand I’ll go back through your journal more throughly and compare numbers. I have one of MOG’s spreadsheets modified for the 8N formula that I use

Yeah - MoG's is fine and will work. Mine is just a re-invention of his to be generic and adaptable for any brand / product line - but less user-friendly.

 

[Entombed]

Subbed.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

1) First few grows: For veg, I used MC 2-part (the old 5% N formula) and a potassium silicate (Bloom City Silica Boost) for pH adjustment. For bloom, I then used MC 2-part + MC's Sweet Candy.

2) For later grows (i.e., once I ran out of MC 2-part), I used whatever I had laying around to get the same elemental ppm concentrations.

My target ppm concentrations (at least, for first few grows) are in this earlier post:

Indoor - Army of Dankness - Bruce's Blueberries

Bruce Campbell's Perpetual Ongoing Optimization Growathon

www.autoflower.org

3) I'm hesitant to post actual weights used (g/gal) since MC changed the formula again - I don't want people to use those without adjusting for their new formulation.

IMO, everyone should be calculating out, managing, and reporting feed rates using elemental ppm levels instead of brand-specific or product-specific weights. This is how they do it in scientific literature and research articles to make the data universal instead of brand-specific.

Elemental PPMs are essentially just "the number of atoms (of N, or P, or K, etc)" per million atoms of water for each element. It's basically just a measure of concentration. But, since atoms of different elements are different sizes, there are some adjustment factors to be made in the conversions for each element.

Here's an old article I wrote to walk people through the math / concepts - but it's a bit dense:

Nutrients - How-to Calculate Elemental PPMs

Introduction This guide will walk you through how-to calculate elemental PPMs in a nutrient mix. Elemental PPMs are the weight ratio of each element in a nutrient solution to the overall weight of that solution, expressed as parts per million. This is not the same as TDS (Total Dissolved...

www.autoflower.org

4) If you want, I can PM a cleaned-up version of the spreadsheet I use to do my calculations.

(Forum won't let me attach Excel files for security reasons, and I don't want to post a link to my google drive account for privacy reasons.)

But - use at your own risk. It's not necessarily user friendly, you may need to adjust some conversion factors for your products, etc.

Oh it would be so sweet if we could measure the Elemental PPM at home without expensive (over 2K) tools. I borrowed some for a while, even at that it leaves some elements out because you need even more expensive tools to read them. This is why I converted all of my work to EC This is a tool I can afford. Formulas are just that and you can get an approximation of the EPPM by weight but based on my actual measurements the Guaranteed Analysis was often to low. The guarantee is that you will get at least what is on the label but it can be well over the stated amount. That said the most important tool I have is my eyes. I look at my plants in 5000K light every day, I have learned what they need or don't need mostly through observation. A good feed schedule is going to have you in the ballpark but careful observation will help fine tune the schedule.

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Oh it would be so sweet if we could measure the Elemental PPM at home without expensive (over 2K) tools. I borrowed some for a while, even at that it leaves some elements out because you need even more expensive tools to read them. This is why I converted all of my work to EC This is a tool I can afford. Formulas are just that and you can get an approximation of the EPPM by weight but based on my actual measurements the Guaranteed Analysis was often to low. The guarantee is that you will get at least what is on the label but it can be well over the stated amount. That said the most important tool I have is my eyes. I look at my plants in 5000K light every day, I have learned what they need or don't need mostly through observation. A good feed schedule is going to have you in the ballpark but careful observation will help fine tune the schedule.

On a side note - I was just googling local cannabis test labs. There's now a few in my state that are an hr or two away that offer testing for individual growers (vs. corporate / commercial clients).

Looks like a basic cannabinoid / potency test would cost about $60 plus the drive there and back. Still a bit impractical, but I'm tempted for my next grow.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

On a side note - I was just googling local cannabis test labs. There's now a few in my state that are an hr or two away that offer testing for individual growers (vs. corporate / commercial clients).

Looks like a basic cannabinoid / potency test would cost about $60 plus the drive there and back. Still a bit impractical, but I'm tempted for my next grow.

We have had access in CA for quite a while. I have used a lab several times, $60 is a good price. I think I paid $90 the last time. I have to be really curious to spend that kind of money.