La Buena Hierba The Theory of AF Origins.

[arcticsun]

Maybe someday with genetics, things will be traced down the line, I know chimera is doing gene testing and a friend has even sent him some Mighty Mite seeds, because we wonder was it a lie from the beginning being a Landrace Himalayan auto or is it just a ruderalis....

hmmm... well i have this gut feeling that auto genetics are much more widespread that what we think.


Ill just refer to the conversation LBH linked in the first post of this thread where he quotes neville.

my first question for neville
while none are noted in the catalouges ,im very curious as too what haze hybrids have you created using the haze female B?
The subject of Haze keeps coming up.
I got mine from Sam the Skunkman in the 80's. I bought a couple of thousand of old stock late 60s/ 70. The first batch that I planted produced one plant, a female. It was the slowest to flower I'd ever come across and flowered for longer. I got 3 different crops of seed of it and it had still not finished. It was huge and filled a quarter of the room, it had wispy buds and when you smoked it, other people complained about the smell. It didn't have much resin and after 9 months flowering, with no end in sight, I chopped it. It seem the most impractical plant I'd ever grown. I didn't keep a cutting.
One of the males I crossed it with was Ruderalis x NL1 X NL1. I was testing a 25% Ruderalis male on the most difficult plant I'd come across to see what it would do. I used all the seed I had to find the earliest male for the next generation. I grew the females out and because it was so resinous, I made hash out of it. To this day it was the best hash I've ever smoked, and I've been privileged to have smoked the best.
I truly regret not having made a cutting of that plant. I didn't make that mistake with the 6 that followed.
I'm feeling a bit sad now, I think that I'll go and have a smoke.
I'll tell you the rest later.
N.

Originally Posted by Nevil

Hi LBH
to get back to your question.

When I first started using Ruderalis, I was trying to eradicate everything from the wild plant except the early flowering gene. NL1 was the opposite of Ruderalis, so I crossed it with that and then put the earliest son back to the mother. The earliest son from that was put to a Haze and I grew the offspring outdoors in Holland. I started flowering early, but didn't finish in the short Dutch Autumn. Still, I had some outdoor Haze bud in Holland.
I also crossed the R.1x1 to NL5 about 8 times, always using males that flowered at the 4th internode. It peaked after 5 back-crosses and didn't get better after that.
I never did NL5r X NL5r like I was planning to, ended up in jail instead.
It's up to you now mate, there is a good selection of Haze type available to cross it to.
N.

Originally Posted by neville

Ruderalis.Shady LadyxNL1 X NL1. I wanted to see how the Ruderalis gene would cope with the most difficult plant in the world. I just threw a handful of these seeds in a large pot with rockwool and chopped the males. They were ripe before the mother. I hung them on the line and more or less forgot about them. After I smoked the mother, I went looking for them and decided to make hash out of it. It had been dry for a while and it was brittle. It had plenty of resin which started coming off the buds as I moved them. It was the best damn hash that I've ever smoked

-


.. and then if we consider what LBH says too in his initial post;

My theory of AF/Lowryder's
i think someone had worked on the Ruderalis.Shady LadyxNL1 beans from Nevil(ore other of his ruder crosses) and found some autoflowering and worked furter on it and the legend of the
mexican ruder/autoflower AKA Loweryder whas born

Maybe more then one of Nevilles early crosses showed especially early traits, from these early genetics could have come some of your famous early or semi auto american guerilla strains such as the guerilla gold, the mighty freeze, the auto affie etc etc

I have a feeling that all this hysteria around keeping the socalled "early" genetics free from auto genes is just chasing the tail if i could say it that way.

And why are we seeing autos in the f1 generation in crosses between autos and indicas?

https://www.autoflower.org/f2/autoflowering-@-f1-photo-auto-cross-5216.html



My first obvious answer would be that there must be auto genes in the makeup of these indicas. They show many other similar characteristics, such as the dark color, dense buds, quick maturity .. etc


But ofc this is all speculation since all seed banks claim their indicas derive from pure afghan IBL land races.


..so we are left to believe that, what else can we do.. even if indicas seem to be able to produce fully automatic offspring...

i guess this duck is a goose.. said the farmer!

 

[canadianconnoisseur]

i donno your theory on lowryder genetics seems alot diff then what is on te joindoctor site...it doesnt say anything about industrial hemp...

heres a quote from his website... http://jointdoctordirect.com/?page_id=41

''Many years ago I started trading seed with a new acquaintance, Antonio, who is now sadly passed on. A spry, dreadlocked expatriate from Mexico, Antonio had been collecting and growing unusual strains for 30-plus years. We met through mutual acquaintances and became great friends, though he was old enough to be my father. I learned a great deal through him, and we shared a passion for collecting rare plants; from blue potatoes to poppies and hemp.
Getting to the point, one of the types of cannabis seed I acquired from Antonio was called “Mexican Rudy,” a strain which stayed short and flowered earlier than anything else. At first the name seemed contradictory: “Rudy” evidently stood for ruderalis, a mythical, rare subspecies of wild cannabis from Siberia which has a short growth habit and quick life cycle; but I failed to see the link with Mexico, though it was the country of Antonio’s origin. Was this simply an unrelated ruderalis-like plant from Mexico, or did it have a link to the real thing?
Although no-one can be sure until some type of genetic fingerprinting is done, I now believe that the Mexican Rudy was actually an experimental cross of Russian ruderalis and Mexican cannabis, made sometime in the 1970s, possibly at the U. of Mississippi in the U.S.
I found obscure references to this very cross in scientific literature circa 1978 (See Starks, M.). In any case, the strain was kept and grown out in Canada for several years before it got to me. The Rudy was indeed a short, quick-flowering strain, with medium potency. But it provided Antonio and his friends with some well-needed stash in mid-summer, before normal plants had even thought about budding.
It was very fast-maturing, and very hardy, although the potency was low to medium. At first, I crossed it with a Northern Lights #2 (also known as Closet Queen or Oasis) that I knew was also a compact plant, but more potent. These F1 seeds gave some really nice, vigorous moms, and although they weren’t autoflowering, they were quick and compact. As I understood much later, the autoflowering trait wasn’t expressed in the F1 since it was recessive. Not really knowing what I had, I decided to cross this F1 with a few different varieties, of the best clones I had around. Actually my friends and I were making many different crosses at this point.
Now I was beginning to have an eye for novel characteristics. I had a tendency to keep seeds and strains that many a grower would have thrown out as off-types. When growing out the next generation of seedlings, in particular a batch of William’s Wonder x (NL#2 x Rudy) seedlings, my buddy and I noticed some very unusual male plants that flowered immediately, when they were still basically seedlings. This was unheard of, especially in a room receiving under 24 hours of light!
I used these “freak” dwarf males as pollinators, and lo and behold, my next generation consisted exclusively of tiny plants that matured automatically at no more than 12 inches and less than 60 days from seed. An ideal closet cultivar. It seemed incredible. And the taste and potency were great too, retaining the structure and scent reminiscent of the William’s Wonder, coupled with a sort of wild, earthy but pleasant aftertaste inherent in ruderalis. The hybrid, dubbed simply Willy’s Automatic at first, became the basis for Lowryder. All the subsequent generations retained this autoflowering characteristic. I grew the variety out on a small scale, in a closet in the winter, and in my garden during the summer, selecting the best specimens, for another five or six generations before it was released on any scale. That’s before this whole autoflowering craze started… but that’s another story.''

 

[tuone]

Who MDanzig?
HAHAHA! Just joking "Wiz"

I've been into AF plants since 2004. Joint doctor and Mdanzig were the only 2 AF breeders in the world back then on the cannabis edge related scene, with JD making LR and LR2 and MDanzig from canada making masterlow and powerstout. Mdanzig is very generous he sent out tester packs for reports on his new AFs and they were big mothers compared to LR1.

Has anyone actually got a photo of pure Ruderalis ? my guess is that they are short ugly little buggers that barely have a kola, they just have a six in stalk and a bunch of leaves at the top.

That's why it took a while for anyone to breed AF into ordinary plants, firstly you need to hybridise 2 species, which doesnt happen very easily, like a mule, or a loganberry, you have to get offspring that is resilient enough to seed f2's, the first lowryders were, according to JD and Mdanzig a work in progress by a scheemy dude who made an f2 cross and then dissapeared, he was abit of a dick, and JD picked it up and did some more backrossing with NLights and others things, and came up with LR1...

then he and mdanzig simultaneously bred LR1 with Kush and AK47 as their main projects, to see if it worked and it really made some bigger badder plants, and then LR2 and etc started selling like hotcakes, and that's where everyone got into it.

Ruderalis is a different species, we dont know how many genes difference it has with sativa, 10 base pairs or 100 base paires (we have 200 base pairs different from neanderthal, like 600 000 years of divergeance)

with genetic decoding becoming cheaper and cheaper, we will eventually have all kinds of mutants and weird cross breeds made on the sly, sequencing a human genome used to take 365 days but nanotech and electronics means nowdays you can sequence any animal or plant in 1-2 days, for 2000 dollars compared to 20 million. soon anyone can get their plants genomes and we will know.

....

As for ruderalis genome, alot of it is conjecture, you have to imagine what kind of habitat it could naturally thrive it, whether it is a meadow plant or a scrubland plant. russia is quite close to kush, and ganja could have originated as a prairie plant and then gone to being a giant weed in hotter climes.

i dont think it just spread by humans since ancient times, i mean sure humans must have weilded ganja for 200 000 years, they even made fire that long ago so they must have had good plant knowledge, but you have to include also dispersion by guts of large animals, like a deer can eat a good bit of natural cannabis and crap some seeds miles away, and deers love scented flowers, they may have actually gotten addicted, or cannabis may actually be a narcotic enticer for some kinds of prairie or scrub herbivores.

the drug is abit too potent for insects and birds, and birds get all the sticky powder on their feathers if they try to eat a load of it...

anyways, ganja is an ancient plant that probably existed in a similar form 2-3 -7 million years ago. it isnt a very invasive plant, but it seems the cannabis family found some niches in prairies of mountains and tropical countries etc, and survived by some strategies pver millions of years since 100 000 years certainly man would have been a major ganja distributor. very sacred weed.

perhaps one day we will find some fossils of the ancestors.

Plants, humans, all of life, has got alot of dormant genes and predictable mutations that nature uses to make us adapt fast to new places. in animals it's hair color, skin color, length of arms and legs, aggressivity, extra teeth, eye closeness... these things are programmed to happen alot more often than skin texture mutations, extra nipples and random mutations.

same with plants, they have extra leaf and branching mutations that occur frequenty so that genomes adapt fast to new places, it's like "guided evolution" rather than random.

flowering times are a gene that is likely to stay flexible in plants genetics because it is a crucial thing for the plant to adapt through millions of years without being too rigid.

 

[cres]

I've been into AF plants since 2004. Joint doctor and Mdanzig were the only 2 AF breeders in the world back then on the cannabis edge related scene,.

Thats not 100% true statement.... there were more than 2......

 

[cres]

Here is some info on some of the genes I work...

During this time Canadian growers on British Columbia's Gulf Islands also experimented with early maturing outdoor varieties. They noticed that some plants always seemed to flower much earlier than the rest and they started exploring those seeds lines in search of good plants. This eventually gave birth to the Mighty Mite strain that has now become famous for its extremely early, if not autoflowering abilities. There is wide speculation on whether Mighty Mite actually contains ruderalis genes. One thing is for certain– it is one of the earliest outdoor plants that can be found. The Mighty Mite has since spread to both indoor and outdoor grows where it has been hybridized countless times in order to create early maturing but potent varieties including Guerilla Gold. It is sometimes difficult to draw a line between extremely early "Semi-Auto" and fully autoflowering plants because they can be seemingly similar in behaviour although they might have totally different pedigree. Perhaps there should be some distinction between the two, where one is classified as autoflowering based on genetic criteria and the other is considered a normal but early maturing plant that has acclimatized to the colder, northern environment. Some of these strains date back as much as thirty years, meaning that the plants have had time to grow accustomed to the local environment and thereby developed traits that ensure their survival. Coincidentally, many of these strains are pure or sativa dominant which would, in an indirect way, support the theory that cannabis ruderalis stems from that side of the family tree. These plants are not autoflowering per se, but so early that it can be difficult to spot any difference.

 

[tuone]

Thats not 100% true statement.... there were more than 2......

They are the only 2 that actually released some proper AF plants in the shops and onto the scene? i know some others on the lowryder threads back then also were attempting blue af plants and distantly said they were working on an af hybrid and ducksfoot leaves hybrids, but i dont think they actually clearly worked on new AF's and released seeds to us at the time cos we didnt see any pics of new auto's until masterlow and powerstout were shown as pics, actually way before lowryder2 even. JD took like 2 years to release LR2 and LR ak47 auto. i think there were 1 2 others who may have made auto's around 2006, but AFAIK, LR2 and masterlow and powerstout were the only af's still in the shop in 2007-8 and then just recently there has been a load of them, many based on AK47 and Kush which probably just comes from mdanzig and jd's early work. what's interesting is that JD knows a good bit about the origins of who he got the plants from which he made LR fr2 (JD LR) and he said the guy was abit difficult to trace, and he came way before jd. the first crosses being talked about in 2005 time were AK47, Kush, NL, that were released, and bubblegum, diesel, and ducksfoot were were released discreetly or as f1's or not at all. that's from the hybred.net forums and the cannabis edge, which was the main sources of info and i read most of it.

 

[cres]

How about Sensi Seeds and Mighty Mite seed co? Both before LR was ever thought of... Rudy Skunk was being sold in the early 90s if not the 80s...Mighty Mite seed co. was using Mighty Mite from the 80s also...

 

[cres]

It may have been a little known strain called polyanna, it was what gave the Early Pearl..."its early". It was for sure an "day neutral plant"

Long since lost.

Early pearl for anyone who is old enough to remember, first flowered in july and was finished in aug. then Nevil had to re work it and it was never that early anymore...(first half of sept) He obviously worked it the wrong way for the auto trait. The EP I have today will show auto traits is the Males but not the females...

My theory of AF/Lowryder's
i think someone had worked on the Ruderalis.Shady LadyxNL1 beans from Nevil(ore other of his ruder crosses) and found some autoflowering and worked furter on it and the legend of the
mexican ruder/autoflower AKA Loweryder whas born

 

[BrotherNature]

, like a deer can eat a good bit of natural cannabis and crap some seeds miles away, and deers love scented flowers, they may have actually gotten addicted, or cannabis may actually be a narcotic enticer for some kinds of prairie or scrub herbivores.

the drug is abit too potent for insects and birds, and birds get all the sticky powder on their feathers if they try to eat a load of it...

Raw cannabis is non-psychoactive as well as being non-addictive, therefore I don't believe that anything could become "addicted". Birds love hemp/cannabis seed. "Canaries won't sing without it."- R.Stroud.
& how many types insects could infest a cannabis patch?Lots.

 

[La Buena Hierba]

My theory of AF/Lowryder's
i think someone had worked on the Ruderalis.Shady LadyxNL1 beans from Nevil(ore other of his ruder crosses) and found some autoflowering and worked furter on it and the legend of the
mexican ruder/autoflower AKA Loweryder whas born

It may have been a little known strain called polyanna, it was what gave the Early Pearl..."its early". It was for sure an "day neutral plant"

Long since lost.

Early pearl for anyone who is old enough to remember, first flowered in july and was finished in aug. then Nevil had to re work it and it was never that early anymore...(first half of sept) He obviously worked it the wrong way for the auto trait. The EP I have today will show auto traits is the Males but not the females...

if you read correct Neville never breed/grow for the autoflowering trait,s ! meabey that why he breed it wrong!
and on the Male's that show autoflowering traits i got lots of old early Dutch strain (given too me by Old Dutch breeders/growers like Wernard Bruining ) that show Male's that autoflower not only the old line of EP
not as you its hard for me too explane my zelf good in english sorry so i cant take a good part of this tread

and still i find it weird the most early/past autoflowering breeders use the same line as Neville first auto/ruder crosses
Neville tolt also me on a froum (i dont rember where) that he sent lots of seeds of those crosses too canada and those part of the world
it can aslo explane why the lowryders where so small in beginning ,becorse neville breed on the shorter flowering (not autoflowering)indoor!

the new auto strains like the super autoflowers from Flash/stitch are taller becorse the where not from lowryder breeding's but from the taller Ruder's crosses and breed for autoflowering (indoor under 24 light) and not the first that show flowering
damm i hoop you guy's understand....... have fun with the thread


peace