La Buena Hierba The Theory of AF Origins.

[Skunky Smurf]

Bump..
Didn't really expect an answer anyway

The reason i ask is early strains have been traded in the n american region for along long time and as it was fairly well erradicated from natural growth in the northern little by little which were producing the earliest finishers naturally and little by little the farmers were forced to stay further south so why now???

While anything in mexico can be "found" for the right price when a substancial sum of money for earliest finishers was offered when it was all classified as "hemp" crop hemp/smoking hemp was being treated dif and selected traits for smoking reasons instead of industrial growing wild across alot of america long before the family knowledge i have(about 100 years ago )
litterally TONs of prospects checked over time and regions and many photo sensitive found, this "true" trait even if dormant never really surfaced naturally because it wasn't needed for central american region and this is during a period of time long before the recent reworking of the trait actually from the region most naturally at the time producing the earliest and most photo sensitive sativa dom strains of the northern regions
the main issue northerners had in later years when electricity was introduced into more rural areas and technology for indoor lights evolved later and opened up the oppertunity to up north and trading for earlier finishers to go indoor years later due to erradication abroad so would then be sending back the best performing earlies that were doing well in the northern areas and the northern climate excellerated the rate at which the plant will finish and mostly the peasant farmers of the region over the years proceeding continuing didn't even have electricity let alone the new hid systems to actually check which were the most photo sensitive let alone testing for "full auto" traits the natural region does not offer the environment to naturally stimulate the continuing traits of some far north "auto's" or early finishers so the earliest finishers were being procurred alot indoors looking for the "grail" of photo sensitive sativas but the "auto" trait in this region is not needed naturally for local dominate sativas to survive so it wouldn't push to dominance in the area so why would it rear it head now???
while they are grown in the southern climate the strain naturally adapts to the climate resulting in the strains getting later and later to finish which was clearly increasing the finish date naturally dispersing the need for the early finish
so my question is was this actually a "real" naturally occuring trait that due to change in climate we are having is now showing long lost genetics in the pool for survival coming to surface now
(which would more than imply the auto trait really being the original precurssor from before the ice age, possibly several ice ages as the possible pole shift theory is taken into effect over thousands of years that survived all over the super continent before seperation and in most regions after generations of fairly stable climates slowley lost the need for the dominate trait of survival and was only still needed in cold climates naturally )
or.... of course people carting genetics around the globe and dropping off a trait that has been long since not needed but now again introduced back will throw the dominate trait heavier into the pool for a few generations it was introduced to untill mother nature filters it out again because it is not needed in the climate for natural survival

I hope you (or your friend) doccumented well this "naturally" occuring phe because it would be true genetic history in the making for us to witness first hand w/o speculation a survival trait resurfacing like this naturally occuring, if not forced by man this needs to be well doccumented for furure generations and honestly am surprised more attention hasn't been drawn to this

ALOT of cannabis "history" gets lost in myth so we need to clarify as much as we can

Sorta like i come from a region of North America that has smoked what was called "SKUNK " since long before prohibition of alcohol in america and yet it is noted as a 60's-70's strain depending on the myth you believe there were people smoking "SKUNK" long before the phrase was "coined" by other growers

 

[Skunky Smurf]

It should be said to clarify i am in no way questiong the sincerity of stitch

maybe yes the circumstances of the "friend" being 100% accurate???

after all being said i find it the most intreaging that if this was exactly the case it would have been spread more commonly amongst te population more heavily if these were the exact circmstances what would be going arond to local "field' growrs that La Famulia wouldn't have some hand in or catch wind of??
A natural sativa dom "auto" plant that will mature fast inany light cycle it would have been the main stable long ago

 

[Debris_Slide]

Here, near the 49th parallel in North America, there are wild strains of hemp growing in the ditches. I assume they escaped from the days when hemp was widely cultivated. Obviously they flower and produce seed in our short growing seasons. (LOL, yes I've tried smoking them in my younger days...not a good idea. I remember carefully collecting growing tips and stashing them in a sock in the rafters of a storage shed until they dried, rolling a joint...and getting a mild headache. Memories...)

So it's tempting to research whether these wild plants are autoflowering or just early finishers. In any case they are perfectly adapted to the area. It would be fun to grow some inside on 24/7 to see if they flower. I need to wait for the laws to ease up in my area, though...heck if I'm risking my freedom to grow hemp in a box!!!

Another fun experiment would be to collect a bunch of pollen of early or autoflowering potent psychoactive strains and walk out to a hemp patch in early summer with a shaker full of pollen. Do that every year, wait a few years, and then sample. Might be doing a favor for the local kids.

 

[dangeruss]

Hate to bump an old thread as my first post here. But I have an experience that belongs in this one.
In the mid 90s I used to see a lot of Mexican bag seed get planted. Rarely could see it get finnished.
It would get too tall or the heat and sun from the desert would take its toll. 115 degree days don't agree
Well with it. But i was always amazed at all the pheno's that would pop up. Tall single stalks, Christmas trees,
Bushes. All sorts of leaves shapes and color. Fluffy buds mostly. But some dense, was all over the place.
Strange thing was, it was all coming from the same grower and his seed stock. Was from the family of a friend who came to
Visit in the summer. Anyways had one plant that grew about 6in tall in 2 weeks and started to flower, single stock.thin serrated leaves.
Pink/ purple calayx's . Strangest thing I ever saw. The rest of the seed from the same cola was orange calayxed but christmas tree shaped same leaves. And huge all had to be cut down before they finished to keep from being seen.

Didn't know anything about autos back then, or really even growing at all. That one plant never made it to a foot tall.
Was finished in three months. But was worthless smoke.

Makes me wonder if the mexican rudderalis wasn't just some rare recessive sativia pheno that was stabilized by somebody. Not really rudderalis at all.

 

[hedgeraider]

The most famous automatic:

In 2005 lowrider 1 was sent out to various members of the cannabisedge forum, a true automatic that flowered after 3 weeks, it was an ugly little mutant that smelt of hazelnuts and nutmeg that grew somewhere in between 5 inches and 15 inches. it had lots of mutants with 3 leaves and micro phenos etc.

I've followed auto news closely since 2005 when lowryder 1 was hot news... i studied abit of biology too, and here is my view of auto history.

In 30 years of cannabis breeding, creating skunk and northern lights etc, all the famous and underground growers could not make something earlier than early pearl and early girl, and later big bang(2002 version), which were not really automatics, although some people reported that they started flowering after about 9-13 nodes, although it wasn't widely confirmed and it didn't have a big reputation. previous to 2005, those that managed to get ruderalise seeds and crossed it found the 1st generation of them were crap stunted photoperiodic plants.

In 2005 lowrider 1 was sent out to various members of the cannabisedge forum, a true automatic that flowered after 3 weeks, it was an ugly mutant that smelt of hazelnuts and nutmeg, but it was full of THC, it was a second generation cross that you could get stoned from.

This one little plant got some of us very excited. It was a completely radical form of cannabis. Completely new and genetically untested. It soon gave rise to about three quarters of the automatics that we have today. Firstly Lowrider 2 from JointDoctor, MasterLow and Powerstout a few months after from MDanzig. in 2005-2006 these were small, but they were extremely impressive large budding plants, with wonderful fragrance and true skunks strength.

cannabisedge was raider and an new automatics forum was created called hybred, the 1st ever automatics forum, and was up for about a year because it wasn't very technically good forum. we were all hungry for new varieties and stuff like blueberry.

It became apparent that the fast autoflowering gene was a gene that was Recessive. same as when you cross a blonde person with a totally black haired person, i.e. African. None of the children are blonde. but they all carry half of a blonde gene. that is the reason why it took 30 years for people to get beyond the 1st generation ruderalis cross into 2 or 3 generations.

So after that we had bluerider, in 2006-7, and then all the big breeders started to be interested.

most of the automatic strains we have today are small little bastards with the most fast auto flower genetics from lowryder1 and 2. They flower very fast after 3 weeks. and all related to the 1st autos from cannabisedge forums.

Certain breeders managed to get hold of other ruderalis that were better than the "Mexican version", and that had later flowering, or they manage to make auto flower mutants that were only half as fast as the originals, and then we had medium and huge automatics which is the state of affairs today.

For 50% of the cannabis growing population of the world, that live in Northern temperate zones, it's the holy grail for easy ganja. That means that in the near future, there will be extremely early humongous plants that can produce half a pound in the middle of August, in every flavour and variety imaginable.

If the 2005 auto was not a cross with a ruderalis, why did it smell of nutmeg, grow 1/2 as fast as sativa and indica, looked weird, odd leaves, and flower early? it clearly was a different species of cannabis from sativa and indica. to attain so much difference from industrial sativa, it would have had to have seperated in rope hemp cultivations at least 2 or 5 centuries, perhaps a millenium, perhaps since the last ice age, when a slow cooling of the climate forced the giant sativa and indica populations of the mountains to make auto's.

 

[bromhexine]

this indicates auto is recessive so why does almost any f1 photoxauto cross end up full auto after a few generations even if you didn't breed the ones that autoflowered?

 

[hedgeraider]

why is the F1 totally photo if it's recessive?

 

[cres]

this indicates auto is recessive so why does almost any f1 photoxauto cross end up full auto after a few generations even if you didn't breed the ones that autoflowered?

you answered your own question. If no matter how you breed it always will end up auto, then IMO its dom.

why is the F1 totally photo if it's recessive?

there are some % of auto...but low. But to answer your question best I can, to understand the gene, you must know the gene, and the gene will show you over and over again that it cannot be stopped, it will turn anything into an auto no matter how it is breed. So with that knowledge how could it ever be considered recessive... The fact that in the F1 there is little to no autos is only a small consideration IMO when determining recessive vs. dominated. Further more it is still not know if there is 1 or more genes in the auto trait. So a F1 generation is not sufficient to determine rec. vs. dom.

By definition, the terms dominant and recessive refer to the genotypic interaction of alleles in producing the phenotype of the heterozygote. The key concept is genetic: Which of the two alleles present in the heterozygote is expressed, such that the organism is phenotypically identical to one of the two homozygotes. It is sometimes convenient to talk about the trait corresponding to the dominant allele as the dominant trait, and the trait corresponding to the hidden allele as the recessive trait. However, this can easily lead to confusion in understanding the concept as phenotypic. For example, to say that "green peas" dominate "yellow peas" confuses inherited genotypes and expressed phenotypes, and will subsequently confuse discussion of the molecular basis of the phenotypic difference.
Dominance is not inherent. One allele can be dominant to a second allele, recessive to a third allele, and codominant to a fourth.
Dominance is unrelated to the nature of the phenotype itself, that is, whether it is regarded as "normal" or "abnormal," "standard" or "nonstandard," "healthy" or "diseased," "stronger" or "weaker," or more or less extreme. A dominant allele may account for any of these trait types. Other distinctions are made between the gene locus (e.g. "A gene influencing seed shape"), the alleles at that locus (e.g. the "round" or "wrinkled alleles"), and the phenotype the alleles produce (e.g. "round" or "wrinkled").

 

[hedgeraider]

it will turn anything into an auto no matter how it is breed.

I think that the above statement is a myth! i'll explain why:

If you hybridize totally photo and auto plants, the F1 is apparently totally photodependant, the auto gene is invisible... can you find me someone saying "some my auto X photo seeds are budding in the middle of july at 1-2 meters tall" ... I mean, the question fascinates me, and i'd love to have more examples of half thoroughbred photoperiodic plants budding in early august. the hybrids bud abit faster, perhaps from mid august, but not before..... so far photo seems almost simple dominant gene.

if someone had a massive automatic(s) in f1, they would have said... oh i have a massive auto in f1, i will keep this gene mix and make all massive automatics. that never happened, the massive automatics came from a different auto gene from non lowryder plants.

And then in the second generation, you see... Oh Great! my F2 have 25 percent automatic plants... and if you cross any f2 auto's together, you get f3 100 percent automatic and you think... no matter how i breed it it ends up auto... 0 percent 25 percent 100 percent in 3 generations, because you throw out the photo's. this is how all recessive genes are. once the plants have 50 percent of invisible auto genes in them, it's almost impossible not to fast have totally photodependant offspring, so it seems auto is taking over. it's not though mysteriously taking over, it's just being invisibly half present.

except if you cross 2 photo plants from f2, you will get either 50 percent automatic, or 100 percent photo, one or the other.

probably yes there is a sequence of genes that triggers each other to switch flowering on, except the automatic gene that starts the process in the middle of long daytimes seems to be very similar to blonde hair and black hair. you get some shades in between after many generations, but normally the throuroughbred black will turn any blonde black again. the thoroughbred blonde wont turn any black blonde.

If automatic gene was a complicated gene like leaf size, that you can selectively get any leaf size you want, then after 10 generations of auto's we would have super auto's, without flash having to find a completely different automatic gene from a different plant.

if it was a complex gene with many expressions in flowering size, we would know it, we would be able to get a plant to bud at any age by mixing any auto and photo plants together, and instead, after 6-7 years of breedign autos, bigger plants came from a different auto gene, not by making different mixes of the original lowryder auto gene, cos it's inflexible, perhaps it would take 100 generations of breeding lowryder gene to make a plant like the super auto.

 

[cres]

What I said is not a myth, it is well documented grow results, all my auto strains are a very low % of LR some less than 3%. And just because you cross a photo to an auto it WILL not mean it will finish in august, that is a real myth. Do you know that all land races cannabis from equatorial regions areas are also day neutral?

if someone had a massive automatic(s) in f1, they would have said... oh i have a massive auto in f1, i will keep this gene mix and make all massive automatics. that never happened, the massive automatics came from a different auto gene from non lowryder plants.

I dont think so. But hey go ahead and ask stitch or DP how there making large autos, but I can assure you there not going to tell you.

why are you confusing the topic here by comparing size of automatics? thats a whole different topic, I'm specifically speaking of THE LR GENE and how it breeds I already established this talking point. Which I have data on, I also have data on Mighty Mite but not to the extent of many generations.

I can assure you that if you breed F2- f5 all short auto phenos of any LR based auto you will end up with short autos, and I can assure you that if you breed all tall phenos to F5 regardless of auto or photo by F5 you will have a fully auto taller auto, and if you take that F5 tall and bx to the F2 and start again you can work it even taller. FACT. And if you cross to other LR based tall autos you can gain hybrid vigor which will again increase the size.