Live Stoner Chat The science of leaf pruning/defoliation?

[BII]

Anyone know how big commercial (legal) grow operations approach defoliation, leaf tucking, etc.?

 

[Son of Hobbes]

Anyone know how big commercial (legal) grow operations approach defoliation, leaf tucking, etc.?

They get on forums or social media and ask other growers how they do it. Seriously though I've seen a number of techniques employed, from plucking to supercropping. There is no industry standard as far as I'm aware. I've seen time lapse videos of defoliated photos in veg versus those not, it's night and day in how defoliating creates mammoth bushes, but you have to factor speed/time into that as well (and for most commercial grows, it's about quantity, not quality.) Food for thought, most commercial grows here hire out entry level growers around $15/hour and with the saturation of the job market, the quality is usually extremely hit or miss. Many grows will hire with as little as one year grow experience. The days of growers making 6 digit figures is probably over (like an oil or gold rush, everyone got hot and heavy when it first started out and now it's regulated itself out.) Point being, these are not "master growers" that are growing commercial cannabis, it's guys that grow pot at home that told a hiring manager they can grow dank dope.

 

[BII]

They get on forums or social media and ask other growers how they do it. Seriously though I've seen a number of techniques employed, from plucking to supercropping. There is no industry standard as far as I'm aware. I've seen time lapse videos of defoliated photos in veg versus those not, it's night and day in how defoliating creates mammoth bushes, but you have to factor speed/time into that as well (and for most commercial grows, it's about quantity, not quality.) Food for thought, most commercial grows here hire out entry level growers around $15/hour and with the saturation of the job market, the quality is usually extremely hit or miss. Many grows will hire with as little as one year grow experience. The days of growers making 6 digit figures is probably over (like an oil or gold rush, everyone got hot and heavy when it first started out and now it's regulated itself out.) Point being, these are not "master growers" that are growing commercial cannabis, it's guys that grow pot at home that told a hiring manager they can grow dank dope.

Are you sure that at least some, maybe even most, legal commercial grow operations haven't or aren't receiving 'expert' advice from somewhere? From what I have seen, there looks to be a whole industry of consulting firms and individual consultants claiming to be experts at grow facility operations, design, lighting, licensing, etc. Many of them look to be (present themselves as) experienced, even successful, so somebody must be hiring these consultants.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

Are you sure that at least some, maybe even most, legal commercial grow operations haven't or aren't receiving 'expert' advice from somewhere? From what I have seen, there looks to be a whole industry of consulting firms and individual consultants claiming to be experts at grow facility operations, design, lighting, licensing, etc.

I think you're taking my post a bit too literally; of course there are consulting companies in the cannabis industry (and "consultant" has become almost a dirty term in the cannabis industry because everyone calls themselves one.) My observation's based on cannabis industry groups, job boards, cannabis news, trends, etc, . Read up yourself if you doubt what I'm saying, but the industry went from this booming, bustling high-paid industry to a very low-wage paying industry very quickly. A giant amount of cannabis workforce is made up of people that think that working in cannabis means you get high all day. If I pay $75 to get my Med badge (required to work in the industry in Colorado,) that's all I need to apply for a job at a greenhouse here and boom. I'm a commercial grower. No shit.

 

[Mikis]

Other than pinching (stressing/damaging) the stem, this seems to be regular leaf tucking?

Pretty much mate!! If you pinch the stem its stops it returning to their natural position!

 

[Mikis]

They get on forums or social media and ask other growers how they do it. Seriously though I've seen a number of techniques employed, from plucking to supercropping. There is no industry standard as far as I'm aware. I've seen time lapse videos of defoliated photos in veg versus those not, it's night and day in how defoliating creates mammoth bushes, but you have to factor speed/time into that as well (and for most commercial grows, it's about quantity, not quality.) Food for thought, most commercial grows here hire out entry level growers around $15/hour and with the saturation of the job market, the quality is usually extremely hit or miss. Many grows will hire with as little as one year grow experience. The days of growers making 6 digit figures is probably over (like an oil or gold rush, everyone got hot and heavy when it first started out and now it's regulated itself out.) Point being, these are not "master growers" that are growing commercial cannabis, it's guys that grow pot at home that told a hiring manager they can grow dank dope.

As you said, there is no industry standard!!
In response to your original question, to the best of my knowledge there is no scientific based evidence that supports or contradicts defoliation as a yield gaining technique when applied to the cannabis!
With regards to what the big companys do, there is no definitive answer to this as there are far too many variables! Growing method, equipment, medium, size of plant, size of growing area, plant genetics... I could go on for ages!!
You could ask this question to a million diff people, but your response would be an opinion rather than a fact, as there simply isnt any!
So...in my opinion, find a strain you like to grow, defoliate some, leave some alone and then just let the plant show you what it prefers. But even then you would only be able to properly do this with clones from the same mother plant as seeds are all individual!!
I hope you find the answers your looking for bro ✌✌

 

[DTOM420]

So, the way this thread is going really illustrates why I posed my original question, asking if anyone could explain the science of leaves as it relates to flower - are the fan leaves critical to flower growth or do the leaves within the bud sufficient to process light, making fan leaves less important or even irrelevant. Every thread I’ve seen on the internet devolves into a debate between those that ‘buy the practice of defoliation’ and those that don’t. For all the incredible knowledge here on AFN, not one person has said anything like, “Research shows that during the flower cycle fan leaves account for X% of flower growth yet the sugar leaves account for Y% of flower growth.” Maybe nobody has studied this?

I’m sure the answer has a lot to do with the particular strain being grown, and possibly other factors; but I really thought there would be more scientific info available on how the plant’s system works in this regard. So much is known about cannabis like how auxins work in the plant and how leaf stomata work and are effected by VPD. It’s amazing that the best anyone seems to be able to do is say that they ‘do’ or ‘dont’ because it’s is or isn’t the practice followed by someone they respect. Doesn’t matter to me which side you’re on.....the apparent lack of scientifically based information ought to concern, or at least interest, everyone. Shouldn’t it?

The fact that very large grow operations may not employ defoliation doesn’t indicate, to me, anything in regards to whether or not it’s a best practice or not. All it indicates it what @Son of Hobbes referenced in terms of cost and and quantity vs quality. I doubt there’s and mechanized method for cannabis pruning available for a very large scale grow where the primary concern is quantity over quality. But, if the science is forthcoming (and it certainly is) and that research indicates a 2-3% improvement in yield, you can bet defoliation machines won’t be far behind.

I was just hoping that someone on here might be aware of some of the scientific explanation of how the various leaf types and locales effect specific growth. So far, though, it seems as though the information either is not available or simply not known to anyone here. That in itself is interesting.

 

[Paradiso]

In retrospect it's pretty funny to expect serious science in an endeavor where "Fuck, I Missed" is an industry standard method of plant training.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

In retrospect it's pretty funny to expect serious science in an endeavor where "Fuck, I Missed" is an industry standard method of plant training.

^ I laughed at this, but on point!

 

[Son of Hobbes]

So, the way this thread is going really illustrates why I posed my original question, asking if anyone could explain the science of leaves as it relates to flower - are the fan leaves critical to flower growth or do the leaves within the bud sufficient to process light, making fan leaves less important or even irrelevant. Every thread I’ve seen on the internet devolves into a debate between those that ‘buy the practice of defoliation’ and those that don’t. For all the incredible knowledge here on AFN, not one person has said anything like, “Research shows that during the flower cycle fan leaves account for X% of flower growth yet the sugar leaves account for Y% of flower growth.” Maybe nobody has studied this?

I’m sure the answer has a lot to do with the particular strain being grown, and possibly other factors; but I really thought there would be more scientific info available on how the plant’s system works in this regard. So much is known about cannabis like how auxins work in the plant and how leaf stomata work and are effected by VPD. It’s amazing that the best anyone seems to be able to do is say that they ‘do’ or ‘dont’ because it’s is or isn’t the practice followed by someone they respect. Doesn’t matter to me which side you’re on.....the apparent lack of scientifically based information ought to concern, or at least interest, everyone. Shouldn’t it?

The fact that very large grow operations may not employ defoliation doesn’t indicate, to me, anything in regards to whether or not it’s a best practice or not. All it indicates it what @Son of Hobbes referenced in terms of cost and and quantity vs quality. I doubt there’s and mechanized method for cannabis pruning available for a very large scale grow where the primary concern is quantity over quality. But, if the science is forthcoming (and it certainly is) and that research indicates a 2-3% improvement in yield, you can bet defoliation machines won’t be far behind.

I was just hoping that someone on here might be aware of some of the scientific explanation of how the various leaf types and locales effect specific growth. So far, though, it seems as though the information either is not available or simply not known to anyone here. That in itself is interesting.

Have you tagged @Waira in here? He's one of our resident go-to's for plant related questions, he might have some ideas on it.