J
JJ05
Guest
Im either ordering La Diva (blueberry x diavlo) or dp auto blueberry
J
JJ05
Guest
ps I plan on growing them outside if that makes a difference.
The topic of LED lighting has got the team at Dutch Passion thinking. Seymour’s original 350 gram from an Automazar was done with 290 watts of power and yet it looked like the result of 600W or possibly even 1000w. I am sure much of this is to do with the fact that the LED’s produce only the light the plant needs with none of the green and yellow ‘less useful’ wavelengths. So 290W of LED light might need say 600w of HPS to produce. I would like to see more from the LED manufacturers on this as they seem to be on the crest of a wave. The only stumbling block will be the price which will deter most customers, even those that have been convinced by thetechnology.
One other important aspect of LED is the fact that the light comes evenly from a panel of 3 feet x 3 feet. Or 1m x 1m for us Europeans. The effect of that is a more even spread of light rather than a single point source as you have with a traditional HPS Bulb. LED is similar in concept to the ‘travelling light’, or HPS on a rail where the light rolls from one side of the room to the other ensuring that all plants get some direct light at some point. The problem with the travelling light technique is that for a lot of the time the bud is getting low light. The idea of spreading that illumination out,a s the LED panel does, results in all the plants is getting a fair share of light all the time And all the light the plant does get is rich in the most useful wavelengths. It is a dream scenario for the plant and perhaps that alters the plants feed requirements. It seems to increase the requirement for calcium and magnesium and I am sure that is key to understanding what it is that LED does differently.
Here is an initial theory on why magnesium deficiencies are seen. Magnesium is used in several ways, it is also needed as part of the chlorophyll molecule itself. Could it be that LED grown plants use extra Magnesium to produce extra chlorophyll to deal with the increased levels of useful light? I don’t know, but it is a fair question to ask.
Calcium is used in different ways by the plants but one way is in cell walls and membranes. It is used in enzymes and transporting of other nutrients. Somehow more of this is going on.
So my thoughts are along several different lines right now.
LED is now more effective ‘watt for watt’ than HPS. The poor public image of LED is down to some early exaggerated claims that never survived public scrutiny. But LED technology has really moved on in the last year or so.
I think the LED market will really takeoff when there is a bit more serious competition. HydrogrowLED look like they could give HPS a serious run for it’s money in coming years but prices will have to drop. I can’t believe that the LED manufacture can be so expensive, a few cents each but surely not too much when LED’s are being produced by the million in the Far East. And assembly of the components is something the Chinese can do with their eyes shut for a fraction of the price we can achieve in the west. So $1,000 or more for a 300 watt LED device seems excessive. Get the price down to $300-$400 and hardened HPS devotees will buy them. In my opinion LED prices are going to have to soften in order to get mass market appeal. At current prices I think 90% of customers will never be able to justify it even though they might love to have one.
But technically they are really moving LEDalong. It makes me wonder where LED light performance might be in a few years time. For those that worry about heat signatures and energy consumption then LED has obvious attractions. The light is all fully usable by the plant and it is delivered from an evenly lit panel rather than a single point. So all the plant surface area can join in the photosynthetic fun.
I have one other point to make about LED. By my reckoning some 40% of available surface area on the panel is not used. I am sure there is a reason for this such as limits in soldering density, or something even sillier reason such as the current factory only make circular units. But I am sure that these problems could be overcome. LED panels could be made brighter by filling some of the ‘dead space’ on the panel with more LED’s. And like I said, I really can’t believe the LED’s themselves can cost that much. We have seen LED’s move from 1 watt to 3 watts in the last couple of years. What happens when they find a way to mass produce a 5W or even a 7W version? And prices will drop like they do for everything else that is mass-producible. I remember being mesmerised by the first electronic calculator I saw, ‘could I ever afford one of my own?’ I wondered. And barely a decade later you were getting them for free when you filled up your car with gas.
I think we need to ask the nutrient manufacturers how they need to reformulate their products to allow for the new feeding requirements of the plants and I will check around the Dutch Passion office to see if we have any contacts and let you know. I am sure I can initiate some cooperation from my mineralised brothers in the nutrient world. I will see if I can get them to register onsite and give us their views.
I think LED will really take off. Right now it is still in the stage of the ‘early adopter’ . It will become a mainstream technology but manufacturers will first face up to a transition from ‘premium market’ to ‘mass market’ and change profit expectations for it to happen.
And Seymour, we would truly love to see you scrog a couple of AutoMazars, let me know if you are serious about that,perhaps after this grow. If you are serious,we will get you some seeds and run a ‘guess the yield’ contest. But I would go for both LED panels (or evenbetter 2x penetrator pro’s !) rather than one. Make it spectacular !
The plant continues to look excellent Seymour, how much is she drinking each day ? I wondered whether there was a hint of nutrient burn at the tips of the leaves on one shot? As you say, she might need another week before the PK14 boost. I am amazed she is at an EC of 1.6 when the Mazar would only take an EC of 1.0 under the same conditions.
You are doing great mate
One other important aspect of LED is the fact that the light comes evenly from a panel of 3 feet x 3 feet. Or 1m x 1m for us Europeans. The effect of that is a more even spread of light rather than a single point source as you have with a traditional HPS Bulb. LED is similar in concept to the ‘travelling light’, or HPS on a rail where the light rolls from one side of the room to the other ensuring that all plants get some direct light at some point. The problem with the travelling light technique is that for a lot of the time the bud is getting low light. The idea of spreading that illumination out,a s the LED panel does, results in all the plants is getting a fair share of light all the time And all the light the plant does get is rich in the most useful wavelengths. It is a dream scenario for the plant and perhaps that alters the plants feed requirements. It seems to increase the requirement for calcium and magnesium and I am sure that is key to understanding what it is that LED does differently.
Here is an initial theory on why magnesium deficiencies are seen. Magnesium is used in several ways, it is also needed as part of the chlorophyll molecule itself. Could it be that LED grown plants use extra Magnesium to produce extra chlorophyll to deal with the increased levels of useful light? I don’t know, but it is a fair question to ask.
Calcium is used in different ways by the plants but one way is in cell walls and membranes. It is used in enzymes and transporting of other nutrients. Somehow more of this is going on.
So my thoughts are along several different lines right now.
LED is now more effective ‘watt for watt’ than HPS. The poor public image of LED is down to some early exaggerated claims that never survived public scrutiny. But LED technology has really moved on in the last year or so.
I think the LED market will really takeoff when there is a bit more serious competition. HydrogrowLED look like they could give HPS a serious run for it’s money in coming years but prices will have to drop. I can’t believe that the LED manufacture can be so expensive, a few cents each but surely not too much when LED’s are being produced by the million in the Far East. And assembly of the components is something the Chinese can do with their eyes shut for a fraction of the price we can achieve in the west. So $1,000 or more for a 300 watt LED device seems excessive. Get the price down to $300-$400 and hardened HPS devotees will buy them. In my opinion LED prices are going to have to soften in order to get mass market appeal. At current prices I think 90% of customers will never be able to justify it even though they might love to have one.
But technically they are really moving LEDalong. It makes me wonder where LED light performance might be in a few years time. For those that worry about heat signatures and energy consumption then LED has obvious attractions. The light is all fully usable by the plant and it is delivered from an evenly lit panel rather than a single point. So all the plant surface area can join in the photosynthetic fun.
I have one other point to make about LED. By my reckoning some 40% of available surface area on the panel is not used. I am sure there is a reason for this such as limits in soldering density, or something even sillier reason such as the current factory only make circular units. But I am sure that these problems could be overcome. LED panels could be made brighter by filling some of the ‘dead space’ on the panel with more LED’s. And like I said, I really can’t believe the LED’s themselves can cost that much. We have seen LED’s move from 1 watt to 3 watts in the last couple of years. What happens when they find a way to mass produce a 5W or even a 7W version? And prices will drop like they do for everything else that is mass-producible. I remember being mesmerised by the first electronic calculator I saw, ‘could I ever afford one of my own?’ I wondered. And barely a decade later you were getting them for free when you filled up your car with gas.
I think we need to ask the nutrient manufacturers how they need to reformulate their products to allow for the new feeding requirements of the plants and I will check around the Dutch Passion office to see if we have any contacts and let you know. I am sure I can initiate some cooperation from my mineralised brothers in the nutrient world. I will see if I can get them to register onsite and give us their views.
I think LED will really take off. Right now it is still in the stage of the ‘early adopter’ . It will become a mainstream technology but manufacturers will first face up to a transition from ‘premium market’ to ‘mass market’ and change profit expectations for it to happen.
And Seymour, we would truly love to see you scrog a couple of AutoMazars, let me know if you are serious about that,perhaps after this grow. If you are serious,we will get you some seeds and run a ‘guess the yield’ contest. But I would go for both LED panels (or evenbetter 2x penetrator pro’s !) rather than one. Make it spectacular !
The plant continues to look excellent Seymour, how much is she drinking each day ? I wondered whether there was a hint of nutrient burn at the tips of the leaves on one shot? As you say, she might need another week before the PK14 boost. I am amazed she is at an EC of 1.6 when the Mazar would only take an EC of 1.0 under the same conditions.
You are doing great mate
seymour-buds
autoflowering scientist
massive difference between this grow and the mazar grow purely because im using a higher powered light and its making the plant act different, like i said i used the 1 watt panel to grow the mazar and only used the gen-x for the last few weeks
this time round im finding that the plants are calling for higher ec due to the higher output in spectrum, the reason the tips are yellowing is cause she is showing signs of mag def and in order to keep up with her demand she is drawing it from her own supply which is a common trait in flowering plants, obviously this is a 1st for me but im trying to counter bablance her with cal/mag suppliment
my educated guess is that due to the intensity of the light she is getting really excited and because im not fully dialled on her feeds she hasnt got enough nutrients to sustain her growth so she will pull from her own reserves, dont worry im on the case
as a grower its important to act quickly to the plants need for nutrition and if you dont act quick enough they will punish you, top genetics in this strain and with only a short while left till the finish im not tripping about it but its a massive learning curve for me and what to expect in my future grows
as stated in your post tony the need for extra cal/mag is needed under the intensity of the lights they seem to wanna use more to keep up with photosynthesis, as long as the buds continue to form i aint worried as i dont wanna be smoking the leaves
this time round im finding that the plants are calling for higher ec due to the higher output in spectrum, the reason the tips are yellowing is cause she is showing signs of mag def and in order to keep up with her demand she is drawing it from her own supply which is a common trait in flowering plants, obviously this is a 1st for me but im trying to counter bablance her with cal/mag suppliment
my educated guess is that due to the intensity of the light she is getting really excited and because im not fully dialled on her feeds she hasnt got enough nutrients to sustain her growth so she will pull from her own reserves, dont worry im on the case
as a grower its important to act quickly to the plants need for nutrition and if you dont act quick enough they will punish you, top genetics in this strain and with only a short while left till the finish im not tripping about it but its a massive learning curve for me and what to expect in my future grows
as stated in your post tony the need for extra cal/mag is needed under the intensity of the lights they seem to wanna use more to keep up with photosynthesis, as long as the buds continue to form i aint worried as i dont wanna be smoking the leaves
DubV
Keeper of the Green
I feel you Seymour! I just switched from a outdoor grower on photo's to cfl indoor and then led indoor and my head is spinning! I have the new magnum plus led with par technology that does 357 watts. There has been a huge learning curve and all of this happened in less than a year. I put several plants into lock out as soon as I switched them cfl to led because I believe they went into shock basically from the light increase. I now think I have it dialed in but I didnt switch from cfl to led this time and I wont be doing that again! The amount of cal/mg the plant use is insane with the led and I am finding I can feed them way more than I ever could with the cfl's. I am strictly an organic soil grower so there are major differences in our techniques but the same issues occur with this new led technology no matter the technique.
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Cannabis growers are the most generous people I know..I couldn't have done it without the Help I have had along the way either...
it amazes me how much time and patience people are prepared to put in to helping others....:clap:
(I've turned a few of them Grey...
..and...I'm sure I got the Most Neurotic Noob award along the way..) I Think you were the first person I saw growing LED when we were @ ICmag..and you have stuck with it..and you Own LED now.
I Love the grows you get with them.
Respect seymour..
seymour-buds
autoflowering scientist
if you grow a plant in soil and you hit the flowering stage plants will naturually yellow as they go further into the end of the life cycle, basically what is taking place is the plants need for higher phophorus and potassium increases and the need for magnesium drops slightly, the difference in hydroponically grown plants is you can actually counter balance the magnesium uptake by offering them more of it in the flowering cycle
because of the increase the p+k she also wants the increas of mag/cal as this is helps transport nutrients around the plants system and obviously photosyntehsis, by adding the extra mag in her feed you can stop her from drawing it from her own supplies that she has built up through the veg cycle
the understanding of a plants chemistry is important to be able to push the plants to their extremes, in nature or if grown outdoors plants will naturaly yellow as they begin to mature and eventually die, with the indoor cultivation you can actually re-create this proecess or you can push the plant harder and keep her going for longer by giving her the extra additives she needs in order to push her for the best bloom which is why hydro always gets the best results
the fact that her ec has dropped 2 points tells me she is crying out for bigger feed to sustain her growth and because i didnt react quick enough to her needs she will draw the extra from herself
like i said im gonna push this plant hard and see how she re-acts and i seriously think she can take it
DubV
Keeper of the Green
Seymour you rock buddy! I have learned more from you, trifid, and medicine man on this forum than I could surfing the web for years! You dont need it but good karma sent your way buddy and of course a rep+ all the way!
T
Trifid
Guest
Here is an initial theory on why magnesium deficiencies are seen. Magnesium is used in several ways, it is also needed as part of the chlorophyll molecule itself. Could it be that LED grown plants use extra Magnesium to produce extra chlorophyll to deal with the increased levels of useful light? I don’t know, but it is a fair question to ask...
Interesting hypothesis Tony - This deserves some further investigation for sure. If you have access to some reliable plant tissue analysis techniques, a controlled experiment to examine the population of magnesium bound nonfluorescent chlorophyll catabolites (tetrapyrroles) in the senescent tissues could be conducted with considerable ease.
Interesting hypothesis Tony - This deserves some further investigation for sure. If you have access to some reliable plant tissue analysis techniques, a controlled experiment to examine the population of magnesium bound nonfluorescent chlorophyll catabolites (tetrapyrroles) in the senescent tissues could be conducted with considerable ease.
seymour-buds
autoflowering scientist
everybody who grows with l.e.d lights has seen this happen, ive switched to a bigger light and honstely think that running both panels is overkill in my space, the plant is showing signs of increased activity and it did catch me unaware as i wasnt expecting her to go into overdrive, also this is my 1st full grow with the gen-x and the "think different" is certainly educating me in where i need to raise my game in order to get the best results out of my setup
fully agree and like what has already been stated l.e.d lights do certainly trigger different chemical responses in the plants uptake of certain nutrients but i have the added beneifit of being in hydro so i can try and counter balance what they need, every time i do a fresh res change its like potting the plant in fresh soil she has full acsess to the full aray of nutrients and if i see any changes in her overall apperance ill know what she needs an increase of
