Bromeo
Dr.Frankenweed M.U.
Have you checked out the Daytona axial fans. Very quiet very powerful but not cheap. I'm in the exact same boat as you....but its me that hates the noise. Like clocks to captain hook they are.
Lighting Lets talk Fanny! ... seriously now, LED fan upgrades!
- Thread starter Groff
- Start date
Wow, I knew his bysen led cracked a fan or two, but totally missed this one! Silenx Effizio? That is some serious specs if true (not doubting you! but these specs sheets sometimes are quite off...) If wonder if Lazy too pics?
EDIT: Oh wow!! half the price of the Noctua's, fluid dynamic bearing and static pressure optimized! I think so far we have a winnner! Great find flat9! Let me augment your rep :brow:
[video=youtube;DN08lHyXgoo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN08lHyXgoo[/video]
Last edited:
BTW, I just went to check the size of my fans (both GN and HGL) and they seem to be 72mm x 25mm. I freaked out a bit 'cos I see no reference to this size anywhere, then I found this...
phew.... so I think we're looking at 80mm fan size! Anyone can confirm its 25mm? I think it really must be the standard size...
So the Silenx Effizio 80x25 comes in two models... 12dBa (25CFM) or 15dBa (32CFM). Guess its a blade size restraint, but from what I've seen so far its not that off at all from standard products. But will look deeper into it. Since I dont live in an extremely warm place, I dont think a slight decrease in CFM will oveheat the modules.
phew.... so I think we're looking at 80mm fan size! Anyone can confirm its 25mm? I think it really must be the standard size...
So the Silenx Effizio 80x25 comes in two models... 12dBa (25CFM) or 15dBa (32CFM). Guess its a blade size restraint, but from what I've seen so far its not that off at all from standard products. But will look deeper into it. Since I dont live in an extremely warm place, I dont think a slight decrease in CFM will oveheat the modules.
Last edited:
Hey Groff!!
I love the fans that i used, nice and quiet and powerful.
Very easy to install as well.
The only thing i have noticed is that the upgraded fans take slightly longer to start spinning than the supplied fans.
Mind you it is only a fraction of a second!
I have noticed that the lights stay nice and cool all over!
Even the slight decrease in CFM's have not caused any hot spots.
I love the fans that i used, nice and quiet and powerful.
Very easy to install as well.
The only thing i have noticed is that the upgraded fans take slightly longer to start spinning than the supplied fans.
Mind you it is only a fraction of a second!
I have noticed that the lights stay nice and cool all over!
Even the slight decrease in CFM's have not caused any hot spots.
This is very silent stuff!
http://www.blacknoise.com/en/products/it/6/Noiseblocker-NB_Multiframe_S_Series_80mm
7.8dB and 18cf/m but is this enough airflow?
EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM = 42,5 M3/H
NF-R8(LNA) 10dBA --> 22,9 CFM = 39 M3/H
M8-1 7,8dBA --> 18 CFM = 30 M3/H
What is the minimum airflow we need, and what is the actual airflow from the standard fans?
And at how many db are the actual fans rated?
A GN ms006 has 4 fans to cool 180W a GN ms004 has 2 fans to cool 120W
( I dont know if the fans are the same and have the same speed in both units, but it makes my think there is alot of overhead on the MS006 if there the same)
How hot may the led heat-sinks get before there is any damage?
http://www.blacknoise.com/en/products/it/6/Noiseblocker-NB_Multiframe_S_Series_80mm
7.8dB and 18cf/m but is this enough airflow?
EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM = 42,5 M3/H
NF-R8(LNA) 10dBA --> 22,9 CFM = 39 M3/H
M8-1 7,8dBA --> 18 CFM = 30 M3/H
What is the minimum airflow we need, and what is the actual airflow from the standard fans?
And at how many db are the actual fans rated?
A GN ms006 has 4 fans to cool 180W a GN ms004 has 2 fans to cool 120W
( I dont know if the fans are the same and have the same speed in both units, but it makes my think there is alot of overhead on the MS006 if there the same)
How hot may the led heat-sinks get before there is any damage?
Last edited:
Brilliant point Soylent, hadnt thought of that at all !
My project for today was to actually start comparing numbers, both in price, cfm and noise. But what you posted about the GN fans puts things into a hole new perspective. I'll look into quite a few "normal" fans and weight in the air flow.
BTW, to convert CFM (cubic feetc per minute) to CMM (cubic meters), multiply/divide by 1.7. So as Soylent pointed
EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM => 25 * 1.7 = 42,5 M3/H
But consider this. When you fire an HID, the room temp fires up, sometimes in excess of 15^C above ambient. You achieve a good growing temp sometimes only manageable by using big ass fans at full speed. Been there, suffered that. When I got LEDs I was able to turn down my fan to 1/5th of the original speed, and consumption went down from 180w to about 40w.
With HID's I could turn it down a little in winter 'cos ambient temp compensated, but come summer, full blast. With LEDs, even in the middle of blazing summer heat, the exhaust fan is still on position 1 (Using an STR 1.5A Step Voltage Controller)
With LEDS its just a fair couple of degrees over ambient temp. In fact, in my experience it goes up only 1 to 2^C. That either mean a) the heat extraction is superb or b) its not heating that much as a whole unit. Since the fans extract to the interior of a tent and the tent does not go blazing hot... that means that overall heat is not that much. But localized heat is another thing. Points of contact to the heatsink surely must be burning. So a solid extraction is a must!
But the heatsink does a proper job dissipating heat, so the heated contact point itself is not the issue. It is heat buildup on the heat sink itself that will "backfire" and cause problems. Overall if I am not mistaken, maximum rated operating heat (ergo, environmental heat) for LED are around 50^C. So following my own train of thought, as long as you are not using (with a safe margin) an environmental temperature of 40-45^C for circulating air and extracting heat... any solid flow of air would do the job right. BTW, heat sink do not suffer damage from heat, that is until they reach melting point and start deforming. But the metal chasis would go before the heat sink, so dont fret for that.
There are not special custom made LED sinks. They are general purpose, and from a production standpoint it is 99% likely they are PC heat sinks, capable of handeling temperatures to the hundreds. My laptop has 2 miniscule fans, a huge copper heatsink, and a CPU operating temp if I am not mistaken is 65^C in its lowest state using speedstep, and I think BIOS shut-down protection is around 115^C. But I never burnt my fingers from using my laptop. And this is a very small enclosed machine, considering.
Its all about dissipation, not CFM. If there was two closed systems that were connected with a tub and the fan as the primal heat extraction operand, like an exhaust fan for a tent... then 100% right, CFM is the number one factor as it extract X amount of air from the system, just like my laptop too, etc.
But these LED's are in an open recirculating system. as long as there is a margin of say 5ºC, there WILL be heat exchange from the heat sink. Convection itself should do the trick, there are a number of fanless LED makers out there. A light breeze would enhance heat exchange, so all in all I think the choice in the fans used are merely a factor of numbers.
It must be faster, cheaper and logistically simpler to produce 1000 individual "plug and play" modules (with cheaper, noisier and higher CFM fans), than to retrofit a 120mm fan, or even get a PWM fan that can be undervolted (which also creates heat) etc.
So listening to my own typing looool :Stones slap: and reforced by Soylent observation on the GN fans (2x fans of the Ms04 vs 4x on the Ms06) - I conclude that what you need is an efficient flux of air to remove heat from the heatsinks, and that is that. In theory, I could even switch them of in the colder months, but obviously that is a bit silly.
Anyone disagree with my reasoning?
So I am now leaning towards price vs noise! I've got 2x GN Ms06 and 1x HGL Sol9, so that is 21 fans I need.
PS:
Forgot to mention this about sound. 3 thinks to consider!
1) motor noise
2) air flux noise
3) noise spectrum
I think in this situation number 2 and 3 are the "worse". Number two depends of turbulence, so fan blade design and obstacles are culprit. Noise spectrum is the residual noise, and being a fan on a fixed rotation, its going to be droning monotonous sound. But this sound can have a center frequency anywhere on the spectrum, from the very high pitch to the lower end. This has a massive effect on people, and highly dependant of the person. So you can have 2 exact spec'ed fans, and one os "whining" at 2000Hz while the other carries along at 200Hz.
Generally speaking, the higher the pitch, the more annoyance, but that is not always the case. Some people get "offended" at certain pitches, without logical reasoning.
My project for today was to actually start comparing numbers, both in price, cfm and noise. But what you posted about the GN fans puts things into a hole new perspective. I'll look into quite a few "normal" fans and weight in the air flow.
BTW, to convert CFM (cubic feetc per minute) to CMM (cubic meters), multiply/divide by 1.7. So as Soylent pointed
EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM => 25 * 1.7 = 42,5 M3/H
But consider this. When you fire an HID, the room temp fires up, sometimes in excess of 15^C above ambient. You achieve a good growing temp sometimes only manageable by using big ass fans at full speed. Been there, suffered that. When I got LEDs I was able to turn down my fan to 1/5th of the original speed, and consumption went down from 180w to about 40w.
With HID's I could turn it down a little in winter 'cos ambient temp compensated, but come summer, full blast. With LEDs, even in the middle of blazing summer heat, the exhaust fan is still on position 1 (Using an STR 1.5A Step Voltage Controller)
With LEDS its just a fair couple of degrees over ambient temp. In fact, in my experience it goes up only 1 to 2^C. That either mean a) the heat extraction is superb or b) its not heating that much as a whole unit. Since the fans extract to the interior of a tent and the tent does not go blazing hot... that means that overall heat is not that much. But localized heat is another thing. Points of contact to the heatsink surely must be burning. So a solid extraction is a must!
But the heatsink does a proper job dissipating heat, so the heated contact point itself is not the issue. It is heat buildup on the heat sink itself that will "backfire" and cause problems. Overall if I am not mistaken, maximum rated operating heat (ergo, environmental heat) for LED are around 50^C. So following my own train of thought, as long as you are not using (with a safe margin) an environmental temperature of 40-45^C for circulating air and extracting heat... any solid flow of air would do the job right. BTW, heat sink do not suffer damage from heat, that is until they reach melting point and start deforming. But the metal chasis would go before the heat sink, so dont fret for that.
There are not special custom made LED sinks. They are general purpose, and from a production standpoint it is 99% likely they are PC heat sinks, capable of handeling temperatures to the hundreds. My laptop has 2 miniscule fans, a huge copper heatsink, and a CPU operating temp if I am not mistaken is 65^C in its lowest state using speedstep, and I think BIOS shut-down protection is around 115^C. But I never burnt my fingers from using my laptop. And this is a very small enclosed machine, considering.
Its all about dissipation, not CFM. If there was two closed systems that were connected with a tub and the fan as the primal heat extraction operand, like an exhaust fan for a tent... then 100% right, CFM is the number one factor as it extract X amount of air from the system, just like my laptop too, etc.
But these LED's are in an open recirculating system. as long as there is a margin of say 5ºC, there WILL be heat exchange from the heat sink. Convection itself should do the trick, there are a number of fanless LED makers out there. A light breeze would enhance heat exchange, so all in all I think the choice in the fans used are merely a factor of numbers.
It must be faster, cheaper and logistically simpler to produce 1000 individual "plug and play" modules (with cheaper, noisier and higher CFM fans), than to retrofit a 120mm fan, or even get a PWM fan that can be undervolted (which also creates heat) etc.
So listening to my own typing looool :Stones slap: and reforced by Soylent observation on the GN fans (2x fans of the Ms04 vs 4x on the Ms06) - I conclude that what you need is an efficient flux of air to remove heat from the heatsinks, and that is that. In theory, I could even switch them of in the colder months, but obviously that is a bit silly.
Anyone disagree with my reasoning?
So I am now leaning towards price vs noise! I've got 2x GN Ms06 and 1x HGL Sol9, so that is 21 fans I need.
PS:
Forgot to mention this about sound. 3 thinks to consider!
1) motor noise
2) air flux noise
3) noise spectrum
I think in this situation number 2 and 3 are the "worse". Number two depends of turbulence, so fan blade design and obstacles are culprit. Noise spectrum is the residual noise, and being a fan on a fixed rotation, its going to be droning monotonous sound. But this sound can have a center frequency anywhere on the spectrum, from the very high pitch to the lower end. This has a massive effect on people, and highly dependant of the person. So you can have 2 exact spec'ed fans, and one os "whining" at 2000Hz while the other carries along at 200Hz.
Generally speaking, the higher the pitch, the more annoyance, but that is not always the case. Some people get "offended" at certain pitches, without logical reasoning.
Last edited:
Searching the bay I found...
Silenx Effizio - EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM = 42,5 M3/H -> 9€
Noctua - NF-R8(LNA) 10dBA --> 22,9 CFM = 39 M3/H -> 14€
Noiseblocker - M8-1 7,8dBA --> 18 CFM = 30 M3/H -> 18€
PS: Jumping around from overclocking forums to silent PC forums using google, its pretty much a consensus that the Silenx Effizio are crappy little things to avoid. They do seem to deliver at first, but are notorious for failure. Noiseblocker and Noctuas have fantastic rep.
Silenx Effizio - EFX-08-12 12dBA --> 25 CFM = 42,5 M3/H -> 9€
Noctua - NF-R8(LNA) 10dBA --> 22,9 CFM = 39 M3/H -> 14€
Noiseblocker - M8-1 7,8dBA --> 18 CFM = 30 M3/H -> 18€
PS: Jumping around from overclocking forums to silent PC forums using google, its pretty much a consensus that the Silenx Effizio are crappy little things to avoid. They do seem to deliver at first, but are notorious for failure. Noiseblocker and Noctuas have fantastic rep.
Last edited:
Here is a nice video demonstrating what I said about the pitched hum... While both of these run virtually at the same noise level, I MUCH prefer the Noiseblocker. In this video 120mm fans are used and I'm not sure if at full RPM or undervolted. I would still prefer an undervolted Noctua to a fulL RPM Noiseblocker
[video=youtube;zxDfGvn3XnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxDfGvn3XnA[/video]
(Having issues embedding again...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxDfGvn3XnA
[video=youtube;zxDfGvn3XnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxDfGvn3XnA[/video]
(Having issues embedding again...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxDfGvn3XnA
Last edited:
