Help needed for Lime usage...

[The Squid]

You did just fine, squid... I just helped a little with the math, and thought I should mention the greensand. :thumbs:

Thanks. I actually thought about the greensand and azomite and even extra Myco, but I liked how it sounded simple, but good compared to some TLO that have a zillion ingredients. Not saying that isn't awesome, but I'm just trying to 'work my way up' so to speak.

Shadow, looking forward to seeing how that works for you. As soon as I get some extra cash to get some more supplies I want to go get some greensand, azomite, and rock phosphate. As well as cottonseed meal and/or soybean meal. I don't wanna use blood or bone. I don't mind the manures and guano so much, but can't find any guano around here.

By the way, you may have noticed, but several or at least a few of those GO nutes have molasses in them. Not that you shouldn't and can't add more, just putting that out there. Also, you can add a few cups of Epsom Salt for magnesium too, but I think you'll be good with the lime. I found some Epsoma Organic Lime that is supposedly the finest grade of pelletized dolomite lime you can get.

 

[thud]

I MAY add a couple gallons of native soil from an old growth tree row

For garden soil, I usually add mole hill soil. I have plenty of moles around here. They bring it from down deep and it is not full of weed seeds. I leave it in my wheelbarrow overnight to allow any bugs to crawl out.

and rock phosphate.

I found potassium phosphate being sold as a conifer tree 'greener'. Have to be careful not to overuse it.

 

[Shadowbuck]

Thanks. I actually thought about the greensand and azomite and even extra Myco, but I liked how it sounded simple, but good compared to some TLO that have a zillion ingredients. Not saying that isn't awesome, but I'm just trying to 'work my way up' so to speak.

Shadow, looking forward to seeing how that works for you. As soon as I get some extra cash to get some more supplies I want to go get some greensand, azomite, and rock phosphate. As well as cottonseed meal and/or soybean meal. I don't wanna use blood or bone. I don't mind the manures and guano so much, but can't find any guano around here.

By the way, you may have noticed, but several or at least a few of those GO nutes have molasses in them. Not that you shouldn't and can't add more, just putting that out there. Also, you can add a few cups of Epsom Salt for magnesium too, but I think you'll be good with the lime. I found some Epsoma Organic Lime that is supposedly the finest grade of pelletized dolomite lime you can get.

Yea bro I looked EVERYWHERE around here for the azomite and greensand (learned about them a week or so ago lol) while I was gathering stuff for the soil. Nobody around here has either including the local greenhouses and nurseries. Trust me I tried lol. I was actually quited shocked that I didn't find it considering all the places I looked. And I'm done ordering stuff online for awhile...chaps my ass having to pay damn near double the price after shipping and what not.

I don't know enough about the seed meals to know what I would want haha but yea I too am staying away from blood and bone meals. I used it on my veggies one time and it was like cocaine to my dog LOL. Then I heard people here talking about plants dug up from animals and what not and I was like nah I'm good on that haha. Yea I can't find guanos around here either. Plenty of cow and chicken poo though. Worm Castings are available but they aint cheap...like ten bucks for a tiny 1lb bag that would just get lost in my soil pile. One of the big box stores is selling "Buffaloam" products and teas...but they too are way overpriced...like 8 bucks for a lil bag of composted buffalo shit or a quart of their 'tea'. Those are basically a play on people that like pretty packaging and don't know any better lol.

Yea I knew about the molasses in the GO but I didnt think it had that much in it to begin with...and as I was only watering in with about 2 gal at like half the light feed dose and stretching that across about 7 or 8 cuft just to moisten it...I added a lil more molasses lol. My lime isn't pelletized...its pulverized. Pretty fine too. It's consistency is somewhere between flour and sand lol.

 

[The Squid]

That's actually the 'grade' of my lime too. Weird you couldn't find that stuff. Haven't actually seen it myself, but have been told it's at Home Depot's and Lowe's. Not sure where you are or if you even have those stores. And Harvey's is a grocery store...on the value side if ya know what I mean.

Yeah blood and bone attracts too much outside and I just don't wanna use that. I'll be using a product cled Liquid Fence, sold at Walmart, to keep deer and rabbits and what not off. Muddy uses it and if done properly, it works wonders. He said he has seen tracks right beside his plants and they must have just walked/ran by. It's pretty smelly stuff. I think it's garlic, hot peppers,egg white, etc. About 23 bucks for the gallon with sprayer. You can spray straight on the plants until the flower and around the plants too. Works great he says. I'm all over it. And weekly insecticide sprays and possibly having to go out wet mornings during full flower to shake off some moisture to cut down on mold and all...Anywhooo...just some techniques...most of my skills or a lot at least are passed down directly from Muddy.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Here is something that was put together by some gardener friends of mine a few years back.

Hopefully, this will help in choosing a proper liming agent.

Here is a list of liming agents and what they contain.
1. Limestone - calcium carbonate

2. Dolomite Lime - elemental calcium (Ca) and magnesium carbonate

3. Gypsum - elemental calcium (Ca) and sulphur in a the form of S04 meaning that it is elemental sulphur with 4 oxygen molecules attached which is important in the cation exchange capacity.

4. Oyster Shell Powder - calcium carbonate (CaCo3) - This product is not what it would appear from the name, it's not a product made from crushed oyster shells but it's a particular oyster shell mined from the San Francisco Bay.

5. Crushed Oyster Shells - calcium carbonate (CaCo3) this product is made from crushed oyster shells.

All of these liming agents either contain elemental calcium or calcium carbonate and it's the calcium which is used to correct acid conditions in a soil.

A good reason for not using dolomite lime is that it contains two times the amount of magnesium as it does of elemental calcium. This is not to say the magnesium isn't important, rather the opposite, it's very important but magnesium has nothing to do as a liming agent.

Excessive magnesium will cause soils to bind up making it difficult for the plant's root hairs to move through the soil to exchange their hydrogen cation (+) for minerals, macro and micro nutrients.

In plant-based soil amendments such as alfalfa meal or kelp meal, a review of the levels of calcium versus magnesium shows that it's 4 and 5 times more - quite the opposite of dolomite lime.

Calcium carbonate is water soluble while magnesium is not. You can use this to your advantage by using limestone in water as part of your watering schedule. I'd recommend about 1 tablespoon per 1 gallon of water. Stir and shake, stir and shake - then apply. This will provide your plants with the amount of calcium necessary to maintain health and growth vigor.

Crushed oyster shells is also pure calcium carbonate. It can be dissolved in water but that can take several days and up to a few weeks. This is the product that chicken growers feed to their hens both for the calcium content (for strong egg shells) and also for grit in the hen's gizzard to aid digestion.

Oyster shell powder is pure calcium carbonate and is immediately dissolved in water.

You can use apple cider vinegar and soak the crushed oyster shells to extract the calcium carbonate. By volume you would want to mix 1 part crushed oyster shells (or egg shells) with 3 parts apple cider vinegar and let it steep for 2 - 3 weeks. The vinegar will extract the calcium from the eggs shells in a concentrated form. Mix 1/4 cup of the vinegar with 1 gallon of water and apply to your soil.

Or you can take egg shells and put them into a large pan on your BBQ grill, fire it up and heat them until they turn shades of brown to black and then crush them and do the same with the crushed oyster shells, you'll end up with calcium phosphate. Apply at the same rate noted above for the crushed oyster shells. You can also process the crushed oyster shell the same way - heating until charred and then distilling the calcium out with apple cider vinegar.

 

[Shadowbuck]

Ok so I did some more looking today and I STILL could not find any azomite or greensand. But I did pick up a bag of this Espoma organic Garden-tone herb and vegetable food with bio-tone (microbes). The guaranteed analysis is 3-4-4...and 5%Ca, 1%mg, and 2% sulfur. I almost got the starter plus as it had more microbes but it was a smaller bag (half), nearly the same price, and its ratio was 4-3-3...I figured I wanted more P-K so went with the garden-tone.

Anyways it says derived from: Hydrolyzed feather meal, pasteurized poultry manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, alfalfa meal, greensand, humates, sulfate of potash, and sulfate of potash magnesia.

So as I can't find greensand or azomite or really anything along those lines for micros, and minerals I grabbed this stuff as it seemed like it should help some with the lack of minerals testerx was refering to when he rec'd I find some greensand.

So next question is how much should I add to my soil mix that I posted earlier in my thread. I put 4cups of lime in the mix already. I know testerx rec'd I use 8 cups but I was under the impression that was more for the extra Ca and Mg since I was lacking in the mineral department. When I did the math of 1 Tbl lime per gallon of mix (after subtracting the volumes of perlite since it doesn't need lime and the promix that already had lime in it), I only came out to like 2.8 cups of lime needed. So anyways I put the 4cups in there for good measure in case I put some native soil in the mix and decided I would shop around a lil bit for something else to add the extra Ca and minerals (hense the espoma which was about the best I could come up with).

The espoma says on the bag to add 2cups per cubic foot, but I thought I should post the question of "how much should I add" here... As I already have the other organic matter in there I didnt want to add too much espoma and make my soil too hot.

This is an open question for anybody that knows, but most specifically it'd be great if testerx could stop by and elaborate on the matter. Thanks!

Peace
-Shadowbuck

 

[X]

I would still add more dolomite... 1 tblsp/gal raises the pH but not enough, IMO, to get it to the desired levels... you have manures and peat that drops pH substantially.

The espoma says on the bag to add 2cups per cubic foot,

That sounds about right... I use that stuff too (in addition to all my other amendments).

sorry, but I get the "shivers" every time you mention using "native soils"...

 

[Shadowbuck]

Right! Thanks bro, good lookin out. My confusion is rectified now lol . The 'native soil' i refer to is more like leaf compost from a tree row. After the top 2-3" the stuff below is almost black as coal, fully composted, earthy stuff...basically just natural compost. I don't plan on adding much...just a couple gallons or so to have a lil more compost to peat ratio. Its from near'ish' the grow site so if there's anything like harmful bacteria or anything in it then its likely at my grow site too so I'd prolly be screwed anyways lol. Thanks again
Peace
-Shadowbuck

 

[phreedom_man1]

kilgore trout - like your info. will be helpful for many members.

I do like and use gypsum, oyster shells and dolomitic lime when necessary, but I would not use gypsum for trying to raise ph.
I would use gypsum for calcium and sulphur.
I would also use gypsum for clay soils or clay compacted soils.

 

[Shadowbuck]

Just for a quick follow up... So I'm glad I didn't add any more lime than the 4 cups. My soil, now thoroughly cooked off, is at a ph of around 6.6-6.8. Had I added any more lime than I did, I would probably have a ph above 7 and would be trying to add acidifiers and such retroactively to correct ph. Grow log in signature.