Indoor Growing Scrog

After using the Growcraft and a few other lights for a few years, I used ChatGPT to help customize my lighting schedule and I recommend it highly if you'd like to fine tune your plant shape.

The biggest issue, though, it putting more light on your plants. Cannabis matures by about day 21 to be able to process 1kµmol of light. That's really important for autoflowers because the veg time is so short. More light earlier ensures a bigger canopy so the autoflower timer kicks over into flower mode. I run photos and auto 24/0 because cannabis is a C3 plant so it does not need darkness to do its Calvin cycle processing and you cannot "catch up" by trying to add more light later in the grow. For autos, I run at 70-80 DLI through the life of the plant.
Please don't think chatGPT is God Almighty that has all the answers you need. Especially in complex matters he/she/the machine is often very wrong, they come up with randomized answers through a scan of the internet and it really doesn't make sense all the time. Combining knowledge with random statements is more what happens.. and without feeding it with more & more detailed feedback and questions what you actually need the answer could be quite far from the truth. But yeah, you probably knew this already..:joy:

Although I don't want to bash you on what you just said on a personal level, so please don't take this wrongly, I'm having some questions about it and placing some (rather big) questions marks by the statements you made here above (the ones I copied). But maybe you can give us some extra information about how you got to this conclusion :cheers:

First of all, I'm having trouble believing a cannabis plant of merely 21 days old (or even younger) can handle 1000PPFD, no matter this is an autoflower or photoperiod that is actually a light feeder. Even more so on 24/0.... Was that what you meant by that statement? Or are you growing with high CO2 levels from the start as well?

Also, the statement of plants not being able to catch up, means you believe it is not beneficial to up the light levels in stages, nor it would make any difference to plant health, structure / yield to do this at a later stage at all? I can tell you it makes all the difference even for long Vegged plants that are for example grown for 6-8 weeks on 18/6 with about 300w LED's whether I flower them under 400w LED or 600w LED in terms of bud structure and yield.

To conclude, so you use a DLI of 70-80 from start to finish? With or without CO2? To me this sounds pretty insane for young/mature plants even with CO2... And also a bit like a waste of photons in the room, but again I could be reading/having this wrongly so please explain yourself/enlighten me if possible!:d5:
 
First of all, I'm having trouble believing a cannabis plant of merely 21 days old (or even younger) can handle 1000PPFD, no matter this is an autoflower or photoperiod that is actually a light feeder. Even more so on 24/0.... Was that what you meant by that statement? Or are you growing with high CO2 levels from the start as well?
Cannabis matures by about day 21 to be able to process 1kµmol of light. That's in ambient CO2.

In my current grow, it took a while longer because I topped above the fourth node at day 17 and held PPFD constant for a few days.

1760730862153.png




Also, the statement of plants not being able to catch up, means you believe it is not beneficial to up the light levels in stages, nor it would make any difference to plant health, structure / yield to do this at a later stage at all?
The statement about "catch up" is part of the paragraph that starts with "it[sic] putting more light on your plants." Increasing light levels later in the grow cannot make up for low light levels at the start of the grow in terms of putting more light on plants. The most easily quantifiable aspect is yield.

Yield is a function of how many photons a plant has received over the course of the grow. The reason for that is that light is the only way that plants can make food. As long as light is the limiting factor and as long as all other conditions are the same and as long as the plant does not receive light above its light saturation point, the plant that receives more light will tend to yield more than a plant that receives less light.

With autoflowers, it's especially important because, like it or not, that plant's gonna go into flower when it wants to (most of the time!). By about day 21, autoflowers start to change internally to get ready to go into flower. That means that it's a real rush to get as much light onto the plant to build out the canopy as much as possible.

It depends on what your goals are, of course. Cannabis will survive at about 100 µmol or higher so you can make the argument that there's no need for more than X PPFD but that's where the word "need" derails the conversation. Instead of trying to wrestle down what the word "need" means, it's a lot easier to discuss how cannabis responds to different parts of the grow environment and let the grower make the decision about how to get the outcome they want. If a grower wants to grow at 300 µmol because they've decided that's what their plant "needs", no argument from me!

My goals are to maximize crop yield, crop quality, and bud quality and every piece of information I've seen in the past four years indicates that the way to do that is to get as much light as you can on your plants as early as possible (normal caveats). That will help ensure that the canopy is as large as possible in veg so that the canopy can capture the maximum amount of light in the reproductive stage.

To conclude, so you use a DLI of 70-80 from start to finish?
When growing autos, that's about right. Cannabis is a light whore. Along with corn and sugar cane, cannabis is the most light hungry crop we have.

Once I hit 1k, that's pretty much where I leave the lights. It's very hard to get consistent measurements. By mid veg, I sample 9 points and, when colas are well above the canopy, I just track the PPFD hitting the buds.

From yesterday. Total wattage (Growcraft X3 flower light + Spider GlowR80's) was 344. PPFD's for 9 spots on the canopy, row and column averages and standard deviations. The SD's indicate that the front and back rows are even but the average shows that the back row is a bit low.
1760736577411.png


Sometimes I've dropped my autos to 20/4 or 21/3. As I wrote in my grow journal a few years ago, paraphrasing, "there's so much weed in there that why bother?". Other than that, though, I keep my light levels high because that's how I get the outcome that I want.

With or without CO2?
Ambient CO2.

To me this sounds pretty insane for young/mature plants even with CO2...
I picked up on that. :-)

I was very skeptical, as well.

I've been growing cannabis for four years now at least two crops a year and thought I was pushing my plants by getting them to 1000µmol by day 35. That was wrong.

In fact, the reason it was taking so long to get my plants to 1000µmol was because I wasn't giving them enough fertilizer. It really was that simple.

After I spent about a week uploading photos and examining my previous grows and my grow processes with ChatGPT that I got excellent feedback in a few areas. GPT is very able in terms of "discussing" an issue and, since it has access to such a vast amount of information, it is able to substantiate its arguments and conclusions by citing sources.

Of course, it has made mistakes and it can be frustrating to communicate with GPT. Yesterday, I wanted it to model the PPFD values that would result from using a pair of lights designed for a 2' tent when they were hung in a 2' x 4' tent. In addition to the two grow lights (Migro 150's), I wanted it to calculate PPFD when I included Blue 55's and the R80's. It kept drawing the heat map 90° from the correct oriantation. It took a while to explain what it was doing wrong. It just got a case of the stoopids, so I had it just render the PPFD values using numbers in a grid. Yeh, it sucks when you spend $20 per month and it can't do something that trivial. ;-)

The contribution that GPT has made has been significant. I might have been able to hire a consultant and for someone with that level of knowledge I would expect to pay a few thousand dollars and then there's the possibility that a consultant may not be available. Nor be able to cite sources. Nor have the same level of knowledge.

But I do know that after changing my processes to use what GPT has recommended, the plant is staggeringly healthy.

As of this morning, Flora is 8 inches tall and roughly 23 inches in diameter. Every metric I can gather about the grow environment is excellent.

The only downside is that there's a lot of labor to LST this plant to keep it low to the ground like this I'm really looking forward to flipping on Monday. I use shower curtain hooks to hang fishing weights from the branches. Some of these branches have four 2 ounce weights holding them down and it's a daily process to defoliate the plant and to add or move the weights.

1760731660643.jpeg



My goals for a grow are to maximize crop yield, crop quality, and bud quality where crop yield is the amount of flower, crop quality is the ratio of flower to the above ground mass, and bud quality is the percentage of secondary metabolites.

For my current grow, I've added a goal of getting smaller buds than normal (I've had buds as long as my forearm in some grows) accepting that there may be a trade off in terms of yield.

The research on this topic is readily available. I've been reading it for about four years and all of the research indicates that "more light=more weed".

It's been demonstrated, both in research and in growers' crops, that the more light you give cannabis (normal caveats apply) the larger your crop will be. Depending upon who you read, the increase is linear, though other research has shown that there is a rolloff as light levels increase. There's nothing shocking about this-it's simple plant biology. Light consists of photons. Photons are used by plants to create glucose. Glucose is used as a source of energy for growth.

In terms of crop quality I think Westmoreland covers that pretty well. I think it's in his 2023 You Tube video and I think that he also touches on it in his dissertation.

In terms of bud quality, which is the density of the buds and the ratio of secondary metabolites, that was in Westmoreland's dissertation and it's littered across multiple research papers that are freely available the Internet.
 
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Moving on with the 2 remaining Zushis in the tent. Took some time to defoliate Pheno1 , as she was a cluttery mess with a trillion sub branches growing far too narrow and into each other. She still is messy again just few hours after but not taking more leaves today. Tommorow the other plant gets some treatment too. Wished to have 2 of those tents as both could have filled a tent fully stretched each when under a scrognet.

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Both zushis are so different. Switched from veg. to flower gradually over a week instead of a straight 12/12 drop.

The plants are from clones and I have used wired and other tools to get the training done, yet I still ended up with a lot lower growth that needed to go to make room. Also today had to bend 3 branches to somewhere where the sidelight is.
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That gives still more light on the buds than having them into shadow inside the plant .
Can't close the tent now but who cares ... still a closed envirionment.

Tent is illuminated with 320w from top and 150w from side/ below (it's on low output in the images but should be noticable still)
Handfeeding, tripart, atm a 4-5l day each.
Pheno 1 is in 22l, pheno2 in 11l coco.

Meanwhile I ordered the still missing 6x6 blocks needed to start a new project soon replacing the other 2 lost plants. While I love the coco, i really look forward to see the difference with rockwool.
Now it's time to go back to page one and read it all again to build another hydro-unit and not f*ck it up later.

Attached a few images of the cluttery mess. Thx again 420autoflower for inspiration and tips in the post here.
 
Cannabis matures by about day 21 to be able to process 1kµmol of light. That's in ambient CO2.

In my current grow, it took a while longer because I topped above the fourth node at day 17 and held PPFD constant for a few days.

View attachment 1763836




The statement about "catch up" is part of the paragraph that starts with "it[sic] putting more light on your plants." Increasing light levels later in the grow cannot make up for low light levels at the start of the grow in terms of putting more light on plants. The most easily quantifiable aspect is yield.

Yield is a function of how many photons a plant has received over the course of the grow. The reason for that is that light is the only way that plants can make food. As long as light is the limiting factor and as long as all other conditions are the same and as long as the plant does not receive light above its light saturation point, the plant that receives more light will tend to yield more than a plant that receives less light.

With autoflowers, it's especially important because, like it or not, that plant's gonna go into flower when it wants to (most of the time!). By about day 21, autoflowers start to change internally to get ready to go into flower. That means that it's a real rush to get as much light onto the plant to build out the canopy as much as possible.

It depends on what your goals are, of course. Cannabis will survive at about 100 µmol or higher so you can make the argument that there's no need for more than X PPFD but that's where the word "need" derails the conversation. Instead of trying to wrestle down what the word "need" means, it's a lot easier to discuss how cannabis responds to different parts of the grow environment and let the grower make the decision about how to get the outcome they want. If a grower wants to grow at 300 µmol because they've decided that's what their plant "needs", no argument from me!

My goals are to maximize crop yield, crop quality, and bud quality and every piece of information I've seen in the past four years indicates that the way to do that is to get as much light as you can on your plants as early as possible (normal caveats). That will help ensure that the canopy is as large as possible in veg so that the canopy can capture the maximum amount of light in the reproductive stage.


When growing autos, that's about right. Cannabis is a light whore. Along with corn and sugar cane, cannabis is the most light hungry crop we have.

Once I hit 1k, that's pretty much where I leave the lights. It's very hard to get consistent measurements. By mid veg, I sample 9 points and, when colas are well above the canopy, I just track the PPFD hitting the buds.

From yesterday. Total wattage (Growcraft X3 flower light + Spider GlowR80's) was 344. PPFD's for 9 spots on the canopy, row and column averages and standard deviations. The SD's indicate that the front and back rows are even but the average shows that the back row is a bit low.
View attachment 1763858

Sometimes I've dropped my autos to 20/4 or 21/3. As I wrote in my grow journal a few years ago, paraphrasing, "there's so much weed in there that why bother?". Other than that, though, I keep my light levels high because that's how I get the outcome that I want.


Ambient CO2.


I picked up on that. :-)

I was very skeptical, as well.

I've been growing cannabis for four years now at least two crops a year and thought I was pushing my plants by getting them to 1000µmol by day 35. That was wrong.

In fact, the reason it was taking so long to get my plants to 1000µmol was because I wasn't giving them enough fertilizer. It really was that simple.

After I spent about a week uploading photos and examining my previous grows and my grow processes with ChatGPT that I got excellent feedback in a few areas. GPT is very able in terms of "discussing" an issue and, since it has access to such a vast amount of information, it is able to substantiate its arguments and conclusions by citing sources.

Of course, it has made mistakes and it can be frustrating to communicate with GPT. Yesterday, I wanted it to model the PPFD values that would result from using a pair of lights designed for a 2' tent when they were hung in a 2' x 4' tent. In addition to the two grow lights (Migro 150's), I wanted it to calculate PPFD when I included Blue 55's and the R80's. It kept drawing the heat map 90° from the correct oriantation. It took a while to explain what it was doing wrong. It just got a case of the stoopids, so I had it just render the PPFD values using numbers in a grid. Yeh, it sucks when you spend $20 per month and it can't do something that trivial. ;-)

The contribution that GPT has made has been significant. I might have been able to hire a consultant and for someone with that level of knowledge I would expect to pay a few thousand dollars and then there's the possibility that a consultant may not be available. Nor be able to cite sources. Nor have the same level of knowledge.

But I do know that after changing my processes to use what GPT has recommended, the plant is staggeringly healthy.

As of this morning, Flora is 8 inches tall and roughly 23 inches in diameter. Every metric I can gather about the grow environment is excellent.

The only downside is that there's a lot of labor to LST this plant to keep it low to the ground like this I'm really looking forward to flipping on Monday. I use shower curtain hooks to hang fishing weights from the branches. Some of these branches have four 2 ounce weights holding them down and it's a daily process to defoliate the plant and to add or move the weights.

View attachment 1763837


My goals for a grow are to maximize crop yield, crop quality, and bud quality where crop yield is the amount of flower, crop quality is the ratio of flower to the above ground mass, and bud quality is the percentage of secondary metabolites.

For my current grow, I've added a goal of getting smaller buds than normal (I've had buds as long as my forearm in some grows) accepting that there may be a trade off in terms of yield.

The research on this topic is readily available. I've been reading it for about four years and all of the research indicates that "more light=more weed".

It's been demonstrated, both in research and in growers' crops, that the more light you give cannabis (normal caveats apply) the larger your crop will be. Depending upon who you read, the increase is linear, though other research has shown that there is a rolloff as light levels increase. There's nothing shocking about this-it's simple plant biology. Light consists of photons. Photons are used by plants to create glucose. Glucose is used as a source of energy for growth.

In terms of crop quality I think Westmoreland covers that pretty well. I think it's in his 2023 You Tube video and I think that he also touches on it in his dissertation.

In terms of bud quality, which is the density of the buds and the ratio of secondary metabolites, that was in Westmoreland's dissertation and it's littered across multiple research papers that are freely available the Internet.
Thanks for the info mate, I really appreciate you taking the time to dive a little deeper with me and explain what you do and why.. to me this makes a huge difference! :thumbsup:

You are probably not surprised that I remain a bit skeptical still and with some statements I still don't agree (yet maybe :rofl:). However, I think some parts definitely sound interesting and are worth exploring myself in the future. I always want to stay open-minded too..

Regarding the growing of auto's I believe there might be some truth to start earlier with giving them higher PPFD levels/Umols/DLI per day in order to have more growth/a bigger plant & yield. But it remains quite complicated and prob a bit strain/pheno dependent too? (in terms of what plants can really handle without stressing)

Might be a risky strategy for beginners, what do you think?

With photoperiods, I still question the statement whether it would make any difference in yield at the end, according to my experiences it all comes down to the lights used in flowering, not whether I used high ppfd values during the VEG-phase or not.

Although there is definitely a maximum to what (young) plants can handle in terms of light maybe we should re-think our strategy when it comes to growing auto's. I think a lot has to do with the spectrum too, because some light spectrum's (especially the ones with more Red) saturate the plant cells more easily than blue (and I think green/orange) ones. I remember talking intensively with the CEO of California Lightworks about this on the fairs many years ago (with LED by Passion we were the official distributor of their brand in Europe). And Craig, the owner could tell a great deal about light, biology and the way plants work.

In my opinion doing such tests/study and really see the results, it can only be done in a few ways, either with clones (in case of growing photoperiods) and if you want test these things out with auto's you would need a very large testgroup, maybe even with a few thousands plants, control groups, and several rounds with the same strain (preferably a homogenous seed variety) to conclude whether it really makes sense to follow such a light strategy.

To me the following question remains, is the extra amount of photons/light (and thus extra power used) really worth it to get that high PPFD values in VEG to get a higher yield eventually?

Also, should you have any other/new data in the future, please enlighten us, always cool to chat/talk about stuff like this! :d5:
 
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