DLi of ppfd?

[Delps8]

Hi @Tattoochase !

the chart is based on 40 dli being the most a plant shud get so red is 35 - 40 and dark red is 40 dli+ so dark red is bad!

i aim to be in the red as aim for 40 dli when in flower (550 pffd over 20 hours)

altho after reading @Delps8 comment it seems they can handle a lot more!

As long as the rest of the grow environment is squared away, cannabis is quite happy at very high levels of light. I know I pissed off two colas at around 940 but, since then, my two little autos have been cranking along with many colas at 850+.

I found that chart last year and used it without questioning it.

It's taken a while for me to adopt the position I've taken. When I started growing (again) at the start of last year, I used my Kind blurple from 2017 at 30" and pissed away $200 worth of seeds by not giving them enough light. They were very leggy and died a few days after germinating. I'm so smart, I did it twice! I describe what I did as "carnage".

I also used the DLI chart from Photone because I had tested Korona and had traded emails with the programmer on software issues (I've been writing software for a living since 1991). I was completely susceptible to appeal to authority, confirmation bias, etc. which is really weird because I am, by nature, a skeptic. When I wrote him about the DLI values, the issue being that their chart appears to be for photos, he replied that autos should use a DLI of 45 once they hit veg. When I asked him to cite his sources, he referred me to the footnotes on his website. I checked the site and he's not using research data. :-(

There's no reason not to use a DLI of 45. To my way of thinking, if growers plan on using that light level, maybe they should buy a smaller light. Though it's a rhetorical question, it drives home a valid point - "Why pay for a light that will produce 900 to 1000 µmols at 12" to 18" if you plan using only 500 µmols?"

Conversely, since almost every light you can find is designed and manufactured to end up at >=900 µmols at standard hang height, that should indicate something. Manufacturers rarely create products that are intended to be used at 50% capacity. That's a very inefficient undertaking, in terms of how the manufacturer expends their resources and in terms of the ROI for the grower.

My light chart from May of this year. Those are the readings left to right, front to back in my tent. Traipsing around with a $500 PAR meter, being soooo careful and being oblivious to the fact that I was barely getting out of second gear.

I don't have the hang height but I was running my X3 at 252 watts (320 max) and DLI's > 45 were in big scary red. My overall DLI was 43 so I was doing just great, right? As Bugbee says about when he's called in to consult with commercial growers, almost without fail, their light levels are too low and "they're leaving money on the table".

There's no harm in running a DLI of 45 but, for me, 110 days into my current grow, and once again, I'm harvesting in July, you can bet your bippy that I want to get that extra 10 or 15% when all I have to do I turn up the dimmer a little bit.

Another thought - save money on the main light and put $$ into side lighting light @Talonxracer and @Death The Cultivator do. Death works in a commercial grow and they run much lower DLI's. Adding in the sidelight gives them a huge increase in yield.

 

[Delps8]

What shoul ppfd be in veg..???

If your plants are established in veg or later, start at 900 µmols and watch what the plants tell you. If you see a light avoidance response, such as leaves rotating around their horizontal axis, "tacoing", or, even worse bleaching, drop you PPFD by 100 µmols /10% to allow the plant to recover.

You might try upping the PPFD again but if the plants really are well into veg then you will have found the max light level for that for that particular strain, as it's growing in your grow environment. That's great — you have "set it" so now you can "forget it"*.

In addition to "peer reviewed" research re. 900, check out a DLI map for North America. Cannabis very, very well in locations that receive over 60 mols for three months out of the year. At times, the plants are getting > 2000 µmols in a lot of places and plants thrive, eg.my Apogee read ≈ 2060 µmols at 1 PM PDT on 6/21 and I'm 35 miles from the clean air capital of the US, Los Angeles.

*I see through Bugbee's "9 parameters of growth" as a how-to guide. Once you've addressed each of those factors, it's no longer a variable in the growing equation. As you optimize each of those items, you'll eventually get to optimal.

 

[InkAddict$]

If your plants are established in veg or later, start at 900 µmols and watch what the plants tell you. If you see a light avoidance response, such as leaves rotating around their horizontal axis, "tacoing", or, even worse bleaching, drop you PPFD by 100 µmols /10% to allow the plant to recover.

You might try upping the PPFD again but if the plants really are well into veg then you will have found the max light level for that for that particular strain, as it's growing in your grow environment. That's great — you have "set it" so now you can "forget it"*.

In addition to "peer reviewed" research re. 900, check out a DLI map for North America. Cannabis very, very well in locations that receive over 60 mols for three months out of the year. At times, the plants are getting > 2000 µmols in a lot of places and plants thrive, eg.my Apogee read ≈ 2060 µmols at 1 PM PDT on 6/21 and I'm 35 miles from the clean air capital of the US, Los Angeles.

*I see through Bugbee's "9 parameters of growth" as a how-to guide. Once you've addressed each of those factors, it's no longer a variable in the growing equation. As you optimize each of those items, you'll eventually get to optimal.

Thanks I will.. you are very knowledgeable... I'm trying to figure this out ... I just want the best results.... I'll up it and see how they respond....

 

[Death The Cultivator]

As long as the rest of the grow environment is squared away, cannabis is quite happy at very high levels of light. I know I pissed off two colas at around 940 but, since then, my two little autos have been cranking along with many colas at 850+.

I found that chart last year and used it without questioning it.

It's taken a while for me to adopt the position I've taken. When I started growing (again) at the start of last year, I used my Kind blurple from 2017 at 30" and pissed away $200 worth of seeds by not giving them enough light. They were very leggy and died a few days after germinating. I'm so smart, I did it twice! I describe what I did as "carnage".

I also used the DLI chart from Photone because I had tested Korona and had traded emails with the programmer on software issues (I've been writing software for a living since 1991). I was completely susceptible to appeal to authority, confirmation bias, etc. which is really weird because I am, by nature, a skeptic. When I wrote him about the DLI values, the issue being that their chart appears to be for photos, he replied that autos should use a DLI of 45 once they hit veg. When I asked him to cite his sources, he referred me to the footnotes on his website. I checked the site and he's not using research data. :-(

There's no reason not to use a DLI of 45. To my way of thinking, if growers plan on using that light level, maybe they should buy a smaller light. Though it's a rhetorical question, it drives home a valid point - "Why pay for a light that will produce 900 to 1000 µmols at 12" to 18" if you plan using only 500 µmols?"

Conversely, since almost every light you can find is designed and manufactured to end up at >=900 µmols at standard hang height, that should indicate something. Manufacturers rarely create products that are intended to be used at 50% capacity. That's a very inefficient undertaking, in terms of how the manufacturer expends their resources and in terms of the ROI for the grower.

My light chart from May of this year. Those are the readings left to right, front to back in my tent. Traipsing around with a $500 PAR meter, being soooo careful and being oblivious to the fact that I was barely getting out of second gear.


View attachment 1481785

I don't have the hang height but I was running my X3 at 252 watts (320 max) and DLI's > 45 were in big scary red. My overall DLI was 43 so I was doing just great, right? As Bugbee says about when he's called in to consult with commercial growers, almost without fail, their light levels are too low and "they're leaving money on the table".

There's no harm in running a DLI of 45 but, for me, 110 days into my current grow, and once again, I'm harvesting in July, you can bet your bippy that I want to get that extra 10 or 15% when all I have to do I turn up the dimmer switch a little bit.

Another thought - save money on the main light and put $$ into side lighting light @Talonxracer and @Death The Cultivator do. Death works in a commercial grow and they run much lower DLI's. Adding in the sidelight gives them a huge increased in yield.

I haven't had the opportunity to use it personally but I've seen results.

I'd say grow lights, intended for flower, have such PPFD values because they are intended for high DLI crops/12 hour photoperiods rather than for autos.

We used a higher DLI because of c02:

For clones: DLI of 7~ @24/0 under T5s 5000k at 74f/64% RH. No c02.

For mothers: DLI of 25-30 @ 24/0 with 800ppms of c02 under 3500 DE 1000w dimmed. 76f/58% RH.

For Veg: Roughly the same as above but under Fluence at 4000k with a 21 day veg.

For flower: started at about the same as the above for the first week then ramped up by day 21 to ~51 DLI under 3000k DE 1000w. Somewhere around 1200ppm of c02 until the last few weeks.

We averaged 120-140g per square foot depending on cultivar and how well my team got flower and cloning done. We managed this with an aphid infestation as well lol. About 1000lbs every 9 days.

I've gone to roughly 60 DLI with a 600w HID under 18/6 growing autos for around 60g per square feet. My photos get less that, around 50 DLI and get equivalent yield but with a 500w LED at 2.4ish efficacy vs the 1.3 of the 600w.

There's probably a line where cost vs efficiency are at a head. Is the cost of running more lighting for yield worth the extra expense of managing the environment to maintain that yield?

 

[InkAddict$]

I haven't had the opportunity to use it personally but I've seen results.

I'd say grow lights, intended for flower, have such PPFD values because they are intended for high DLI crops/12 hour photoperiods rather than for autos.

We used a higher DLI because of c02:

For clones: DLI of 7~ @24/0 under T5s 5000k at 74f/64% RH. No c02.

For mothers: DLI of 25-30 @ 24/0 with 800ppms of c02 under 3500 DE 1000w dimmed. 76f/58% RH.

For Veg: Roughly the same as above but under Fluence at 4000k with a 21 day veg.

For flower: started at about the same as the above for the first week then ramped up by day 21 to ~51 DLI under 3000k DE 1000w. Somewhere around 1200ppm of c02 until the last few weeks.

We averaged 120-140g per square foot depending on cultivar and how well my team got flower and cloning done. We managed this with an aphid infestation as well lol. About 1000lbs every 9 days.

I've gone to roughly 60 DLI with a 600w HID under 18/6 growing autos for around 60g per square feet. My photos get less that, around 50 DLI and get equivalent yield but with a 500w LED at 2.4ish efficacy vs the 1.3 of the 600w.

There's probably a line where cost vs efficiency are at a head. Is the cost of running more lighting for yield worth the extra expense of managing the environment to maintain that yield?

Idk.... This shits confusing... Lol I guess I'll go 900 on my hlg 650r and see if they can handle it I also have the hlg UVA bar and 2 uv far red bars connected to the same light... I'm running 18/6 and the uv bar for 45 min on 15 min off... for 12 hours...

 

[Talonxracer]

Efficiency and longevity are big concerns along with the size of the harvest for me, so with my custom light setup I run the Samsung led's at no more than 50% of rated maximum as the setting for 100% from the controller. At this power level the Samsung led's have a fantastic efficiency rating of 3.3ish and with a larger footprint the light provides a more uniform coverage.

 

[Death The Cultivator]

Efficiency and longevity are big concerns along with the size of the harvest for me, so with my custom light setup I run the Samsung led's at no more than 50% of rated maximum as the setting for 100% from the controller. At this power level the Samsung led's have a fantastic efficiency rating of 3.3ish and with a larger footprint the light provides a more uniform coverage.

You're my DIY dreams but at the cost it will take for the scale I want to go - my pockets, they cry.

 

[Talonxracer]

You're my DIY dreams but at the cost it will take for the scale I want to go - my pockets, they cry.

LOL,,, I spend my VA disability checks on new gear rather than buying weed, so it doesn't hurt the wallet too bad....:smoking:

I can't wait for summer to be over so I can get the indoor grow going again, but I have mother nature providing light to a few plants for a summertime grow!

 

[N/A-Greengo]

My last run I slowly progressed my girls to a max of about 74 DLI at around week 2.5 of flowering and continued at 74 until finish.

 

[man10101]

As long as the rest of the grow environment is squared away, cannabis is quite happy at very high levels of light. I know I pissed off two colas at around 940 but, since then, my two little autos have been cranking along with many colas at 850+.

I found that chart last year and used it without questioning it.

It's taken a while for me to adopt the position I've taken. When I started growing (again) at the start of last year, I used my Kind blurple from 2017 at 30" and pissed away $200 worth of seeds by not giving them enough light. They were very leggy and died a few days after germinating. I'm so smart, I did it twice! I describe what I did as "carnage".

I also used the DLI chart from Photone because I had tested Korona and had traded emails with the programmer on software issues (I've been writing software for a living since 1991). I was completely susceptible to appeal to authority, confirmation bias, etc. which is really weird because I am, by nature, a skeptic. When I wrote him about the DLI values, the issue being that their chart appears to be for photos, he replied that autos should use a DLI of 45 once they hit veg. When I asked him to cite his sources, he referred me to the footnotes on his website. I checked the site and he's not using research data. :-(

There's no reason not to use a DLI of 45. To my way of thinking, if growers plan on using that light level, maybe they should buy a smaller light. Though it's a rhetorical question, it drives home a valid point - "Why pay for a light that will produce 900 to 1000 µmols at 12" to 18" if you plan using only 500 µmols?"

Conversely, since almost every light you can find is designed and manufactured to end up at >=900 µmols at standard hang height, that should indicate something. Manufacturers rarely create products that are intended to be used at 50% capacity. That's a very inefficient undertaking, in terms of how the manufacturer expends their resources and in terms of the ROI for the grower.

My light chart from May of this year. Those are the readings left to right, front to back in my tent. Traipsing around with a $500 PAR meter, being soooo careful and being oblivious to the fact that I was barely getting out of second gear.


View attachment 1481785

I don't have the hang height but I was running my X3 at 252 watts (320 max) and DLI's > 45 were in big scary red. My overall DLI was 43 so I was doing just great, right? As Bugbee says about when he's called in to consult with commercial growers, almost without fail, their light levels are too low and "they're leaving money on the table".

There's no harm in running a DLI of 45 but, for me, 110 days into my current grow, and once again, I'm harvesting in July, you can bet your bippy that I want to get that extra 10 or 15% when all I have to do I turn up the dimmer a little bit.

Another thought - save money on the main light and put $$ into side lighting light @Talonxracer and @Death The Cultivator do. Death works in a commercial grow and they run much lower DLI's. Adding in the sidelight gives them a huge increase in yield.

Thanks for the reply @Delps8
Looks like ill be turning me lights up!