- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 10,867
- Reputation
- 1,910
- Reaction score
- 6,692
- Points
- 0
- Website
- www.youtube.com
Found this iteraive on another forum... thought he covered a ot of points very scientifically. All names reffered to in this post are clearly not from our site 
JM
I have not been able to locate the article "unorthodox" speaks of. But it would seem unlikely that the cross would take place with 'Humulus Japonicus' (Asian Hop), as 'Humulus Lupulus' (Common Hop) would appear to be a more compatible plant.
And "UUallace" is correct, both cannabis and Humulus are genera within the same family (Cannabaceae). And we know that intergeneric hybrids are possible. However, since there is no documentation of an attempt at crossbreeding cannabis and Humulus, we know very little about what types of difficulties may be encountered. We can merely speculate.
"Elakazal" is most likely correct in his assumption that "unorthodox" is thinking of the urban legend that grafting hops upon cannabis rootstock results in hops containing 'THC'. The reason grafting is not capable of providing the desired results is because the active constituents of cannabis are contained in the trichomes, not in stem or vascular tissues. Thus 'THC' cannot transfer through the root. But I do believe "Elakazal" is incorrect in his belief of cannabis and Humulus having different methods of sex determination.
"Absent" is correct that both cannabis and Humulus are diploid (contain the same number of chromosomes). And we have already established that grafts do not produce there intended effects. Now addressing your vague description of "tricks" intended to get pollen to take. I am not sure why you would trim the pistils, unless it is necessary in using polyethylene glycol (PEG) to force pollen grain germination, a process I am unfamiliar with. I would appreciate clarification.
"Jimster" is correct "lockeys_love_shack", Humulus plants do indeed have resin glands in their cones (strobili). But it still doesn't make grafting any more useful.
Now to address "garyfla". First off, "UUallace" is correct in his statement that Humulus is legal to both grow and possess. I do not know if growing cannabis falls under trafficking laws, but both growing and possession are definitely illegal. I am curious though that if such a feat as creating a hybrid were to be achieved what consequences one might face.
Obviously crossbreeding would require the possession of at least one cannabis plant, which is illegal in most countries. But lets say hypothetically you perform the crossbreeding in a location in which it is not illegal. Then the questions would be whether or not another plant which produces the same active constituents as cannabis would be illegal, and whether or not the resulting plant is sufficiently different to cannabis to truly be considered another plant.
If someone were to create an intergeneric hybrid of 'Humulus Lupulus' and 'Cannabis Sativa' the possession of the resulting plant, assuming it contained 'THC' or some other type of controlled cannabinoid, could very well be illegal. In the United States, Cannabis is a Schedule 1 controlled substance, Nabilone (Synthetic Cannabinoid) is a Schedule 2 controlled substance, and Marinol (Synthetic THC) is a Schedule 3 controlled substance.
But we should remember that there is also the possibility that the hybrid would have what may be considered "negative properties", such as the aesthetic appearance of a cannabis plant but the production of 'Lupulin' or whatever the Humulus equivalent is to 'THC'. We have seen similar crossbreeds go wrong before.
For example, the intergeneric cross between radish (Raphanus sativus) and cabbage (Brassica oleracea). There has been some success in ultimately getting some fertile offspring. Unfortunately the offspring have been useless since the leaves are like a radish and the roots are like a cabbage (ideally the roots would be like radish and the leaves like cabbage).
So the cross might be possible but the exact traits inherited would not be predictable, thus making it too risky to attempt.
Though hypothetically the method with the least risk involved if one wished to attempt this cross in a location where cannabis is illegal would most likely be to grow a female Humulus plant and obtain the pollen of a cannabis plant, but I am not certain if the possession of cannabis pollen is illegal.
Now "hopguy", "unorthodox" didn't specify what, if any, intentions he had pertaining to the theoretical hybrid. I would agree that most likely the hybrid would not be fit for either brewing or smoking, since it would more than likely have a different chemical profile. But this will remain speculation until the day such a hybrid exists, if that day ever comes.
Let me make a list of similarities and differences based on the knowledge I currently have, so that others may have a reference of some sort.
**Plants of intended hybridization:
-Humulus Lupulus (Hardiness Zones: 4a - 8b)
-Cannabis Sativa (Hardiness Zones: ?)
*Similarities:
-Both are naturally diploid, having a chromosome complement of 2n=20.
-Both species are dioecious, with separate male and female plants in the population.
-Both are genera within the same family.
-Both plants are pollinated by the wind.
-Both contain phytoestrogens.
-Both contain Humulene, a naturally occurring monocyclic sesquiterpene which contributes to their characteristic aromas.
-Both have the presence of glandular trichomes on inflorescenes, and both biosynthesize terpenophenolic secondary metabolites in these trichomes.
*Differences:
-Cannabis is annual while Humulus is perennial.
-Humulus lacks buds at the base of the staminate inflorescence.
Now, allow me break down exactly what would need to take place for this hybridization to occur.
First you must have successful pollen germination between the two plants, resulting in seed formation. This requires hand pollination (also called "mechanical pollination") using an artists brush or a cotton swab to transfer the pollen from the male plant to the pistil on the female plant. The first step alone may be quite difficult, though several unverifiable stories claim that seeds have been formed, but that they are dormant. If I may cite one such similar claim:
"It is possible to produce viable grafts between hops and hemp and it is reported that pollination of hops by hemp, annual nettle (Urtica urens) or perennial nettle (Urtica dioica) stimulates cone development, but only abortive embryos are produced."
Now step two would require successful seed germination, assuming that it is even plausible to get this far, seed dormancy (usually embryo dormancy or internal dormancy) could be an issue here. It is caused by a condition of the embryo which prevents germination. This is something I am still researching.
And for my very last reflection, in regards to classification, I wonder what the F1 hybrid resulting from a cross of cannabis and Humulus would be termed. I understand that hybrid speciation is the process wherein hybridization between two different closely related species leads to a distinct phenotype (a physical feature). And that if reproductive isolation is achieved, it may lead to a separate species. But where exactly does that leave this theoretical intergeneric hybrid?
Well, to summerize my final thought, I see no reason that these two plants would be incapable of producing a viable offspring, though it may take certain techniques beyond traditional cross pollination. That being said, I am still a budding amateur botanist so I may have made several mistakes, however I am more than happy to be corrected. So if you feel that something I have stated is incorrect, please post! Feel free to post any and every thought related to whether or not you feel this is even theoretically plausible.
I tip my hat to anyone who has just endured my obscenely long post, and I hope someone finds it useful. Perhaps it will spark up some more discussion on the matter. Also, if there is a mod or someone of similar standing reading this, could you please edit the title of this thread and correct the improper spelling?
JM
- Posted by organicmattc (My Page) on Sun, Apr 27, 08 at 4:56
I have not been able to locate the article "unorthodox" speaks of. But it would seem unlikely that the cross would take place with 'Humulus Japonicus' (Asian Hop), as 'Humulus Lupulus' (Common Hop) would appear to be a more compatible plant.
And "UUallace" is correct, both cannabis and Humulus are genera within the same family (Cannabaceae). And we know that intergeneric hybrids are possible. However, since there is no documentation of an attempt at crossbreeding cannabis and Humulus, we know very little about what types of difficulties may be encountered. We can merely speculate.
"Elakazal" is most likely correct in his assumption that "unorthodox" is thinking of the urban legend that grafting hops upon cannabis rootstock results in hops containing 'THC'. The reason grafting is not capable of providing the desired results is because the active constituents of cannabis are contained in the trichomes, not in stem or vascular tissues. Thus 'THC' cannot transfer through the root. But I do believe "Elakazal" is incorrect in his belief of cannabis and Humulus having different methods of sex determination.
"Absent" is correct that both cannabis and Humulus are diploid (contain the same number of chromosomes). And we have already established that grafts do not produce there intended effects. Now addressing your vague description of "tricks" intended to get pollen to take. I am not sure why you would trim the pistils, unless it is necessary in using polyethylene glycol (PEG) to force pollen grain germination, a process I am unfamiliar with. I would appreciate clarification.
"Jimster" is correct "lockeys_love_shack", Humulus plants do indeed have resin glands in their cones (strobili). But it still doesn't make grafting any more useful.
Now to address "garyfla". First off, "UUallace" is correct in his statement that Humulus is legal to both grow and possess. I do not know if growing cannabis falls under trafficking laws, but both growing and possession are definitely illegal. I am curious though that if such a feat as creating a hybrid were to be achieved what consequences one might face.
Obviously crossbreeding would require the possession of at least one cannabis plant, which is illegal in most countries. But lets say hypothetically you perform the crossbreeding in a location in which it is not illegal. Then the questions would be whether or not another plant which produces the same active constituents as cannabis would be illegal, and whether or not the resulting plant is sufficiently different to cannabis to truly be considered another plant.
If someone were to create an intergeneric hybrid of 'Humulus Lupulus' and 'Cannabis Sativa' the possession of the resulting plant, assuming it contained 'THC' or some other type of controlled cannabinoid, could very well be illegal. In the United States, Cannabis is a Schedule 1 controlled substance, Nabilone (Synthetic Cannabinoid) is a Schedule 2 controlled substance, and Marinol (Synthetic THC) is a Schedule 3 controlled substance.
But we should remember that there is also the possibility that the hybrid would have what may be considered "negative properties", such as the aesthetic appearance of a cannabis plant but the production of 'Lupulin' or whatever the Humulus equivalent is to 'THC'. We have seen similar crossbreeds go wrong before.
For example, the intergeneric cross between radish (Raphanus sativus) and cabbage (Brassica oleracea). There has been some success in ultimately getting some fertile offspring. Unfortunately the offspring have been useless since the leaves are like a radish and the roots are like a cabbage (ideally the roots would be like radish and the leaves like cabbage).
So the cross might be possible but the exact traits inherited would not be predictable, thus making it too risky to attempt.
Though hypothetically the method with the least risk involved if one wished to attempt this cross in a location where cannabis is illegal would most likely be to grow a female Humulus plant and obtain the pollen of a cannabis plant, but I am not certain if the possession of cannabis pollen is illegal.
Now "hopguy", "unorthodox" didn't specify what, if any, intentions he had pertaining to the theoretical hybrid. I would agree that most likely the hybrid would not be fit for either brewing or smoking, since it would more than likely have a different chemical profile. But this will remain speculation until the day such a hybrid exists, if that day ever comes.
Let me make a list of similarities and differences based on the knowledge I currently have, so that others may have a reference of some sort.
**Plants of intended hybridization:
-Humulus Lupulus (Hardiness Zones: 4a - 8b)
-Cannabis Sativa (Hardiness Zones: ?)
*Similarities:
-Both are naturally diploid, having a chromosome complement of 2n=20.
-Both species are dioecious, with separate male and female plants in the population.
-Both are genera within the same family.
-Both plants are pollinated by the wind.
-Both contain phytoestrogens.
-Both contain Humulene, a naturally occurring monocyclic sesquiterpene which contributes to their characteristic aromas.
-Both have the presence of glandular trichomes on inflorescenes, and both biosynthesize terpenophenolic secondary metabolites in these trichomes.
*Differences:
-Cannabis is annual while Humulus is perennial.
-Humulus lacks buds at the base of the staminate inflorescence.
Now, allow me break down exactly what would need to take place for this hybridization to occur.
First you must have successful pollen germination between the two plants, resulting in seed formation. This requires hand pollination (also called "mechanical pollination") using an artists brush or a cotton swab to transfer the pollen from the male plant to the pistil on the female plant. The first step alone may be quite difficult, though several unverifiable stories claim that seeds have been formed, but that they are dormant. If I may cite one such similar claim:
"It is possible to produce viable grafts between hops and hemp and it is reported that pollination of hops by hemp, annual nettle (Urtica urens) or perennial nettle (Urtica dioica) stimulates cone development, but only abortive embryos are produced."
Now step two would require successful seed germination, assuming that it is even plausible to get this far, seed dormancy (usually embryo dormancy or internal dormancy) could be an issue here. It is caused by a condition of the embryo which prevents germination. This is something I am still researching.
And for my very last reflection, in regards to classification, I wonder what the F1 hybrid resulting from a cross of cannabis and Humulus would be termed. I understand that hybrid speciation is the process wherein hybridization between two different closely related species leads to a distinct phenotype (a physical feature). And that if reproductive isolation is achieved, it may lead to a separate species. But where exactly does that leave this theoretical intergeneric hybrid?
Well, to summerize my final thought, I see no reason that these two plants would be incapable of producing a viable offspring, though it may take certain techniques beyond traditional cross pollination. That being said, I am still a budding amateur botanist so I may have made several mistakes, however I am more than happy to be corrected. So if you feel that something I have stated is incorrect, please post! Feel free to post any and every thought related to whether or not you feel this is even theoretically plausible.
I tip my hat to anyone who has just endured my obscenely long post, and I hope someone finds it useful. Perhaps it will spark up some more discussion on the matter. Also, if there is a mod or someone of similar standing reading this, could you please edit the title of this thread and correct the improper spelling?
