Calcium Lockout?

[Kazman420]

if it wasn't broken - let's not apply the fix

LE: a bit too late in day58 to foliar feed anyway. it would have to be a damp towel wipe on the leaves rather than spraying out of a gardener's bottle spray. but you don't need to do it, if you didn't even spray the stomatas.

day58 - if the hairs are starting to look good (5-10% of them amber) OR if you can check the trichs with the loupe and 10-20% of them are cloudy... I'm thinking it's time to drop the nutes all together and just go on water for the rest of it.
(dunno exactly the strain's lifespan)

so in day 58 one could say she "made it" already. depends on the hair color / trichs under microscope / magnifying glass

I'm actively ignoring stuff as much as possible with my ladies because over-correction is real (and especially on my type of character)
these buggers are sturdy, they want to live so it's really hard to kill them with one mistake. it gets easier to kill them when you try to correct a mistake with another mistake on top of it and so on

Thank you for all that info! Very helpful. I couldn't have said it better in regards to over-correcting. Every time I see something wrong my initial instinct is to do something to fix/correct the problem. It's just like being over-protective of your child, lol.

All the pistols are still white, but the tips are starting to turn red/brown. Mephisto says 65-75 days. I have a loupe coming in the mail tomorrow, so I'll be able to check the trichromes. And thanks to your post I know when to switch over to just water.

 

[Kazman420]

Coco uses more calmag than other media and you are using very light feed across the board including calmag. This may be compounded by the not pre-washing the medium. I know Canna bags are pre-buffered with calmag, but I am not sure if the blocks are.

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply @MIAutomatic. I think the blocks are buffered, but I can't find anything definitive. It's something I've been curious about for a while now. I should just send an email to Canna..

 

[Kazman420]

Overall, the yellowing doesn't look too bad and you may be able to make it to harvest without changing up anything, depending on how fast it progresses. But, in general, I recommend calculating out the elemental ppms in your feed as the first step in troubleshooting any nutrient issue.

You're high on Ca relative to K. Your pH Up is helping with that, but it's hard to determine exactly how much without more info. FloraMicro looks like it has enough Ca to balance out the K in the FloraBloom without adding additional cal-mag.

You're a bit low on sulfur compared to typical feed amounts, and that's what the yellowing could be. The cal-mag and your intermediate pH levels during mixing could be making that worse.

Your tip burn may have been due to VPD issues at the leaves, and not necessarily nute burn - so you may have room to increase feed levels.

I would eliminate the cal-mag and maybe try to increase the FloraBloom.
____________________________________________
Numbers:

I measured 10 drops of water from a pipette, and that was only ~0.5 mL. Here's some numbers assuming your "8-10 drops per half gallon" are about the same size, and your pH Up is ~20% potassium carbonate:

General Hydroponics

FloraMicro

6

mL

per gal

General Hydroponics

FloraBloom

9

mL

per gal

TPS

Cal-Mag OAC

5

mL

per gal

Generic

pH Up (20% K2CO3)

1

mL

per gal

N

P

K

Ca

Mg

S

Cu

Fe

Mo

Zn

B

Mn

Si

Total PPM (mg/L):

79.26

51.88

122.01

138.71

50.20

23.78

0.16

1.59

0.01

0.24

0.16

0.79

0.00

I usually try to aim for a 4:2:1 ratio of K:Ca:Mg. Removing the cal-mag gives a better ratio:

General Hydroponics

FloraMicro

6

mL

per gal

General Hydroponics

FloraBloom

9

mL

per gal

TPS

Cal-Mag OAC

0

mL

per gal

Generic

pH Up (20% K2CO3)

1

mL

per gal

N

P

K

Ca

Mg

S

Cu

Fe

Mo

Zn

B

Mn

Si

Total PPM (mg/L):

79.26

51.88

122.01

79.26

35.67

23.78

0.16

1.59

0.01

0.24

0.16

0.79

0.00

Typical ranges for S in feeds are usually ~50-100 ppm, and the yellowing could be consistent with low S. I'm not sure if there's any compatibility issues between the TPS Cal-Mag OAC and the flora series, but the directions for floramicro say to add it to fresh water first. Eliminating the cal-mag may improve S availability, as well as changing up your mixing order to avoid any large swings in intermediate pH.


If you want to increase the amount of FloraBloom, this ratio would give you a bit more S and should keep K:Ca:Mg pretty close. I'm not sure of its final pH / electrical conductivity, so you'd need to check those before using:

General Hydroponics

FloraMicro

7

mL

per gal

General Hydroponics

FloraBloom

15

mL

per gal

TPS

Cal-Mag OAC

0

mL

per gal

Generic

pH Up (20% K2CO3)

1

mL

per gal

N

P

K

Ca

Mg

S

Cu

Fe

Mo

Zn

B

Mn

Si

Total PPM (mg/L):

92.47

86.47

176.85

92.47

59.45

39.63

0.18

1.85

0.01

0.28

0.18

0.92

0.00

Another option would be to add epsom salts for S. They can be incompatible with the calcium nitrate in the FloraMicro, but that may be less of an issue since you're using it immediately - but, again, mixing order and intermediate pH could matter. You'd only need a small amount, so you'd need a powder/milligram scale to measure accurately:

General Hydroponics

FloraMicro

6

mL

per gal

General Hydroponics

FloraBloom

9

mL

per gal

TPS

Cal-Mag OAC

0

mL

per gal

-

Epsom Salts

300

mg

per gal

Generic

pH Up (20% K2CO3)

1

mL

per gal

N

P

K

Ca

Mg

S

Cu

Fe

Mo

Zn

B

Mn

Si

Total PPM (mg/L):

79.26

51.88

122.01

79.26

43.43

34.08

0.16

1.59

0.01

0.24

0.16

0.79

0.00

You can do a foliar application of epsom salts for mag deficiencies, but I don't think that would work if it's a sulfur deficiency since sulfur may be more immobile.

WOW!! Thank you for that post @Bruce Campbell. That's an incredible amount of information you have provided! I see now you are on an entirely different level from me, lol. (Maybe one day I will get there too). Breaking down the nutrients like that is extremely helpful. Did you already have a spreadsheet for GH nutes, or did you just work out those numbers on the fly?

I just checked and 10 drops in my pipette is .5ml as well so your numbers should be the same as mine, and I do have a milligram scale from back in the day. CalMag can lower pH, yes? I never actually thought to check the pH of just the GH nutes. I bet it's closer to 5.8 and possibly more stable without the CalMag. As soon as the lights come on I'm going to check.

I know my VPD was a little fubar'd in the first couple of weeks. It's much better now that it's gotten cooler outside. I also got lucky and the humidity dropped back into range on its own. Leaf temp is consistently 2 degrees (F) less than the room. You've given me a lot of options and I have a renewed sense of hope that my baby is going to be alright. Thank you very much!

 

[DCLXVI]

Yeah I knew the TDS meter was on the cheap side. I didn't have a huge budget when I started and I read that if you are going to buy TDS/PH meters you should make sure the pH meter is a good one. So I splurged a little on the pH meter (Apera) and went with a cheap TDS meter.

I also really underestimated the upfront cost of growing. I already had the ballast and reflector, but everything else adds up quickly. $20 here, $30 there. Multiple trips to Home Depot and late night ordering on Amazon, etc etc. Distilled water also adds up quickly. I probably could have bought a cheap RO system with all the money I've spent on water.

I'll definitely look into a higher quality TDS/EC meter. If anybody has any recommendation on brands please let me know.

I understand that completely. I do have the same ppm meter, I think it works well. Would love an all in one unit.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@Kazman420 The Lucas formula works for Lucas because he does things specific to his environment. I only recommend balanced nutrient as you have read in my thread. The formula from the vendor (they should know ther product best) uses all three parts in various combinations when you leave one out your going to get out of balance.

Distilled water has no calcium that means you need to add between 80 to 140 PPM plus 50 for the coco!

Why are you using Distilled water?

Thanks for the link! For some reason I thought the Photone app was for iPhone only, so it's nice to see they have a version for Android. Previously I was using the Migro LUX to PAR Hack. Looking forward to testing the app out.

I just measured the TDS of 5mg CalMag (which is what I have been using) and it came out to 68ppm (.5 Scale). I'll try lowering it to 50ppm.

68PPM is close enough.

Did you spray neem oil on the leaves?

 

[MIAutomatic]

If we take the GH chart as fact, and I believe it’s correct. You should be adding a minimum of 130ppm calmag and up to 190ppm to RO or distilled water, basically the same as the .4 EC I recommend as calmag baseline for coco.

68ppm calmag is not enough for a coco grow using RO or distilled water. It would be ok with most tap water, but since you are starting at about zero you need to add more.

 

[Suki]

WOW!! Thank you for that post @Bruce Campbell. That's an incredible amount of information you have provided! I see now you are on an entirely different level from me, lol. (Maybe one day I will get there too). Breaking down the nutrients like that is extremely helpful. Did you already have a spreadsheet for GH nutes, or did you just work out those numbers on the fly?

I just checked and 10 drops in my pipette is .5ml as well so your numbers should be the same as mine, and I do have a milligram scale from back in the day. CalMag can lower pH, yes? I never actually thought to check the pH of just the GH nutes. I bet it's closer to 5.8 and possibly more stable without the CalMag. As soon as the lights come on I'm going to check.

I know my VPD was a little fubar'd in the first couple of weeks. It's much better now that it's gotten cooler outside. I also got lucky and the humidity dropped back into range on its own. Leaf temp is consistently 2 degrees (F) less than the room. You've given me a lot of options and I have a renewed sense of hope that my baby is going to be alright. Thank you very much!

@Bruce Campbell is a magic man when it comes to the number crunching lol. I just wish he hadn't changed his name since "KDawg" is in my predictive text now

 

[Kazman420]

@Kazman420 The Lucas formula works for Lucas because he does things specific to his environment. I only recommend balanced nutrient as you have read in my thread. The formula from the vendor (they should know ther product best) uses all three parts in various combinations when you leave one out your going to get out of balance.

View attachment 1384339

Distilled water has no calcium that means you need to add between 80 to 140 PPM plus 50 for the coco!

Why are you using Distilled water?


68PPM is close enough.

Did you spray neem oil on the leaves?

That's a great chart, I hadn't seen that one before. Thank you for posting it @Mañ'O'Green

I went with the Lucas method because at the time I was completely overwhelmed with information and I wanted something 'simple' to follow. I didn't know half of what I know now (and I'm still a newbie in every sense of the word). I was actually so set on following a formula that I intentionally went with TPS brand of CalMag because it has zero NPK and wouldn't screw up the numbers. Look where that got me, lol.

My house tap water has an Iron issue. It comes out at 44 ppm (.5 Scale) but the water report shows Iron exceeded my state minimum contaminant level for potable water. It ranged from .25mg/L all the way up to 1.25mg/L depending on where the samples were taken. This partially influenced my decision to use distilled water. I also thought the idea of controlling every aspect of the nutrients was kinda neat and it would remove the 'guesswork' with deficiencies/toxicity. I chose Coco for the same reason, along with it's resistance to pests. Obviously that plan didn't come together, hehe.


I did a Neem oil spray on 9/22/21, they were 16 days old. I had noticed a few very fine spider webs on my leaves and didn't want to take any chances since I'm growing in a basement. I mostly concentrated on the soil but some of the lower fan leaves did get sprayed with it. There were no pistols/flowers at the time and all of the growth which got sprayed is way way down on the bottom of the plant at this point. Here's a picture for reference. (You can see how Skywalker on the left was pretty much screwed from the start. To much heat/light when she was a seedling. Forum Stomper on the right is the one that now has the issues I posted about in this thread).



I'm more than happy to switch back to using what GH recommends if you think that would be best. I'm really just trying to keep my head above water right now and finish this first grow. Thank god for AFN though because I'd be having a full blown panic attack if it wasn't for you guys!

Edit: Iron levels are in milligrams, not milliliters. Updated accordingly.

 

[Kazman420]

If we take the GH chart as fact, and I believe it’s correct. You should be adding a minimum of 130ppm calmag and up to 190ppm to RO or distilled water, basically the same as the .4 EC I recommend as calmag baseline for coco.

68ppm calmag is not enough for a coco grow using RO or distilled water. It would be ok with most tap water, but since you are starting at about zero you need to add more.

Heyas @MIAutomatic. Thanks for posting! I've got so much conflicting information that I feel like a deer caught in headlights. Even within this thread there's a very large difference of opinion on the CalMag. All I know is that right now with the 68ppm calmag and the 6/9ml Micro/Grow there is an issue, so something has to change.

If I were to start with that much CalMag (let's say 200ppm as an example) and my girl has responded best to 350ppm of nutes, I would only have 150ppm available for the remaining nutes, yes? Would I just add them as normal and dilute the whole thing back down to 350ppm?

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@Kazman420 First off Your plants will survive if you do not kill them with kindness. They are really resilient. Thank you for the TPS Cal-mag product information. I don't know how they made Calcium Hydroxide available in hydroponics but it is a blessing if it works. Lime is usually only for soil. I will be acquiring some immediately.

As to the Iron I do not know if we are talking about the same scale? but you are still in range if we are talking mg/L, can you show the report? If you live in an old city the iron can be coming from the plumbing. If it is municipal water they would have to fix it or are you on a well?

A 44 PPM starting water should be fine. We need to know we are using the same scales.