Anyone use Green planet dual fuel & pro-cal with coco coir? Or can give advice?

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

Hey guys, Thank you so much. I have been meaning to use green planet dual fuel with coco air for a long time but couldn’t find the appropriate guidance until now. All the comments here are very helpful.

Dude I couldn’t really find ANYTHING about dual fuel, I get some of these replies aren’t specific to dual fuel, but they’re still very helpful and give me some more things to consider

 

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

K, Ca, and Mg compete with each other for plant uptake, so you want to manage them relative to each other. A typical industry practice is to provide them in a 4:2:1 elemental ratio (see here). I usually do the math to check elemental ppms.

During veg, the Green Planet schedule has about equal K and Ca. So, no more Ca is needed. If anything, you may want to tweak the schedule ratios to add more K.

During flower, the schedule adds Massive (which adds K) and reduces Dual Fuel 1&2 slightly (which lowers Ca). So, you may need some cal-mag and epsom salts to bring the Ca and Mg back into the right range.
[/QUOTE

K, Ca, and Mg compete with each other for plant uptake, so you want to manage them relative to each other. A typical industry practice is to provide them in a 4:2:1 elemental ratio (see here). I usually do the math to check elemental ppms.

During veg, the Green Planet schedule has about equal K and Ca. So, no more Ca is needed. If anything, you may want to tweak the schedule ratios to add more K.

During flower, the schedule adds Massive (which adds K) and reduces Dual Fuel 1&2 slightly (which lowers Ca). So, you may need some cal-mag and epsom salts to bring the Ca and Mg back into the right range.

Alright thanks, think I’m understanding.
Do you think it’d be fine to adjust dual fuel 1&2 separately? They suggest using it in a 1:1 ratio, but I had considered using slightly more of 2 if needed to cut back on nitrogen and/or up some Of the other nutrients.
more should I adjust massive to try to get more K?

 

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

Actually. I suggest you do use the microbe food, microbe products are actually one of the few additives i endorse. Hydroponics are rarely sterile even if we try and make it, coco coir, is 100% not sterile the medium is usually teeming with fungus and other microbes so definitely feed them. It'll do you better than the PK in my opinion.

But yeah when your ready to add the PK dont follow the feed chart exactly but do be prepared to lower the concentration of base nutrient when you add it. Dont add too much of anything though, a little goes a long way
[/QUOTE

Actually. I suggest you do use the microbe food, microbe products are actually one of the few additives i endorse. Hydroponics are rarely sterile even if we try and make it, coco coir, is 100% not sterile the medium is usually teeming with fungus and other microbes so definitely feed them. It'll do you better than the PK in my opinion.

But yeah when your ready to add the PK dont follow the feed chart exactly but do be prepared to lower the concentration of base nutrient when you add it. Dont add too much of anything though, a little goes a long way

Makes sense, thanks a bunch man

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Alright thanks, think I’m understanding.
Do you think it’d be fine to adjust dual fuel 1&2 separately? They suggest using it in a 1:1 ratio, but I had considered using slightly more of 2 if needed to cut back on nitrogen and/or up some Of the other nutrients.
more should I adjust massive to try to get more K?

Give me a day or so and I can take a look at the numbers.

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Below are a few modifications of the Green Planet feed schedule. The ranges are based on the results of these studies and are generally consistent with the levels in MoG's nutrient tutorial.

I don't know what the pH of these final solutions would be, so remember to adjust accordingly. Also be aware that a lot of pH adjusters can affect the nutrient levels, so you may need to account for those if you are using a lot.

You can adjust the feed strength by mixing a full-strength batch, measuring its EC, and then diluting based on EC down to the desired strength (neglecting the EC of the starting water source). For example:

• Starting Water EC = 0.1
• Full-strength Solution EC = 1.1
• 75% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.75 = 0.85
• 50% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.5 = 0.6

Based on the results below, I would start with Veg #2 / 25% strength during seedlings (first week or two after germination), then switch to Veg #2 / 50% strength as your normal feed once they are big enough. I would increase the strength through vegetative until high nitrogen becomes an issue (i.e., dark green leaves). Once any pre-flower stretch ends or begins to slow (~week 7), I would switch to the flowering mix. For the strength of the flowering mix, I would base it on the N in the final strength you arrived at during vegetative and aim for ~33%-50% less N during flower.

(Understand that I haven't tried these specific levels, so use at your own risk )

Veg #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Only

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	11.75	mL/gal	=	2.38	tsp/gal	=	3.10	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	19.75	mL/gal	=	4.01	tsp/gal	=	5.22	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Veg # 1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	155.22	68.31	285.67	155.22	78.27	130.45	0.22	3.41	0.02	0.31	0.62	1.24	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	77.61	34.16	142.84	77.61	39.13	65.22	0.11	1.71	0.01	0.16	0.31	0.62	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	38.80	17.08	71.42	38.80	19.57	32.61	0.05	0.85	0.00	0.08	0.16	0.31	0.00

Veg #2 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	6.5	mL/gal	=	1.32	tsp/gal	=	1.72	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	17.25	mL/gal	=	3.50	tsp/gal	=	4.56	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	3.25	mL/gal	=	0.66	tsp/gal	=	0.86	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	900	mg/gal	=	900	mg/gal	=	238	mg/L
Veg # 2		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	158.52	62.26	214.94	108.65	53.36	73.84	0.13	4.82	0.02	0.36	0.55	0.94	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	79.26	31.13	107.47	54.33	26.68	36.92	0.07	2.41	0.01	0.18	0.28	0.47	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	39.63	15.56	53.73	27.16	13.34	18.46	0.03	1.20	0.00	0.09	0.14	0.23	0.00

Flower #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	13.25	mL/gal	=	2.69	tsp/gal	=	3.50	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	2.5	mL/gal	=	0.51	tsp/gal	=	0.66	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/L
Flower #1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	102.38	51.59	206.71	95.77	52.51	87.52	0.13	2.44	0.01	0.19	0.38	0.77	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	51.19	25.80	103.36	47.89	26.25	43.76	0.07	1.22	0.01	0.10	0.19	0.38	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	25.59	12.90	51.68	23.94	13.13	21.88	0.03	0.61	0.00	0.05	0.10	0.19	0.00

 

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

Below are a few modifications of the Green Planet feed schedule. The ranges are based on the results of these studies and are generally consistent with the levels in MoG's nutrient tutorial.

I don't know what the pH of these final solutions would be, so remember to adjust accordingly. Also be aware that a lot of pH adjusters can affect the nutrient levels, so you may need to account for those if you are using a lot.

You can adjust the feed strength by mixing a full-strength batch, measuring its EC, and then diluting based on EC down to the desired strength (neglecting the EC of the starting water source). For example:

• Starting Water EC = 0.1
• Full-strength Solution EC = 1.1
• 75% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.75 = 0.85
• 50% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.5 = 0.6

Based on the results below, I would start with Veg #2 / 25% strength during seedlings (first week or two after germination), then switch to Veg #2 / 50% strength as your normal feed once they are big enough. I would increase the strength through vegetative until high nitrogen becomes an issue (i.e., dark green leaves). Once any pre-flower stretch ends or begins to slow (~week 7), I would switch to the flowering mix. For the strength of the flowering mix, I would base it on the N in the final strength you arrived at during vegetative and aim for ~33%-50% less N during flower.

(Understand that I haven't tried these specific levels, so use at your own risk )

Veg #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Only

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	11.75	mL/gal	=	2.38	tsp/gal	=	3.10	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	19.75	mL/gal	=	4.01	tsp/gal	=	5.22	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Veg # 1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	155.22	68.31	285.67	155.22	78.27	130.45	0.22	3.41	0.02	0.31	0.62	1.24	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	77.61	34.16	142.84	77.61	39.13	65.22	0.11	1.71	0.01	0.16	0.31	0.62	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	38.80	17.08	71.42	38.80	19.57	32.61	0.05	0.85	0.00	0.08	0.16	0.31	0.00

Veg #2 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	6.5	mL/gal	=	1.32	tsp/gal	=	1.72	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	17.25	mL/gal	=	3.50	tsp/gal	=	4.56	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	3.25	mL/gal	=	0.66	tsp/gal	=	0.86	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	900	mg/gal	=	900	mg/gal	=	238	mg/L
Veg # 2		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	158.52	62.26	214.94	108.65	53.36	73.84	0.13	4.82	0.02	0.36	0.55	0.94	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	79.26	31.13	107.47	54.33	26.68	36.92	0.07	2.41	0.01	0.18	0.28	0.47	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	39.63	15.56	53.73	27.16	13.34	18.46	0.03	1.20	0.00	0.09	0.14	0.23	0.00

Flower #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	13.25	mL/gal	=	2.69	tsp/gal	=	3.50	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	2.5	mL/gal	=	0.51	tsp/gal	=	0.66	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/L
Flower #1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	102.38	51.59	206.71	95.77	52.51	87.52	0.13	2.44	0.01	0.19	0.38	0.77	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	51.19	25.80	103.36	47.89	26.25	43.76	0.07	1.22	0.01	0.10	0.19	0.38	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	25.59	12.90	51.68	23.94	13.13	21.88	0.03	0.61	0.00	0.05	0.10	0.19	0.00

Wow, Thanks for taking the time to do this man! Super helpful, gonna read up on your links, compare these numbers to my numbers and figure out how I’m going to proceed.

 

[DCLXVI]

I spoke with @F.N. about some of their products a while back. He may have some knowledge.

 

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

Below are a few modifications of the Green Planet feed schedule. The ranges are based on the results of these studies and are generally consistent with the levels in MoG's nutrient tutorial.

I don't know what the pH of these final solutions would be, so remember to adjust accordingly. Also be aware that a lot of pH adjusters can affect the nutrient levels, so you may need to account for those if you are using a lot.

You can adjust the feed strength by mixing a full-strength batch, measuring its EC, and then diluting based on EC down to the desired strength (neglecting the EC of the starting water source). For example:

• Starting Water EC = 0.1
• Full-strength Solution EC = 1.1
• 75% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.75 = 0.85
• 50% Strength EC = 0.1 + (1.1 - 0.1)*0.5 = 0.6

Based on the results below, I would start with Veg #2 / 25% strength during seedlings (first week or two after germination), then switch to Veg #2 / 50% strength as your normal feed once they are big enough. I would increase the strength through vegetative until high nitrogen becomes an issue (i.e., dark green leaves). Once any pre-flower stretch ends or begins to slow (~week 7), I would switch to the flowering mix. For the strength of the flowering mix, I would base it on the N in the final strength you arrived at during vegetative and aim for ~33%-50% less N during flower.

(Understand that I haven't tried these specific levels, so use at your own risk )

Veg #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Only

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	11.75	mL/gal	=	2.38	tsp/gal	=	3.10	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	19.75	mL/gal	=	4.01	tsp/gal	=	5.22	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
Veg # 1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	155.22	68.31	285.67	155.22	78.27	130.45	0.22	3.41	0.02	0.31	0.62	1.24	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	77.61	34.16	142.84	77.61	39.13	65.22	0.11	1.71	0.01	0.16	0.31	0.62	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	38.80	17.08	71.42	38.80	19.57	32.61	0.05	0.85	0.00	0.08	0.16	0.31	0.00

Veg #2 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	6.5	mL/gal	=	1.32	tsp/gal	=	1.72	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	17.25	mL/gal	=	3.50	tsp/gal	=	4.56	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	3.25	mL/gal	=	0.66	tsp/gal	=	0.86	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	900	mg/gal	=	900	mg/gal	=	238	mg/L
Veg # 2		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	158.52	62.26	214.94	108.65	53.36	73.84	0.13	4.82	0.02	0.36	0.55	0.94	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	79.26	31.13	107.47	54.33	26.68	36.92	0.07	2.41	0.01	0.18	0.28	0.47	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	39.63	15.56	53.73	27.16	13.34	18.46	0.03	1.20	0.00	0.09	0.14	0.23	0.00

Flower #1 - Dual Fuel 1 & 2 Plus Massive

Green Planet	Dual Fuel 1	7.25	mL/gal	=	1.47	tsp/gal	=	1.92	mL/L
Green Planet	Dual Fuel 2	13.25	mL/gal	=	2.69	tsp/gal	=	3.50	mL/L
Green Planet	Massive	2.5	mL/gal	=	0.51	tsp/gal	=	0.66	mL/L
Green Planet	Pro Cal	0	mL/gal	=	0.00	tsp/gal	=	0.00	mL/L
-	Epsom Salts	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/gal	=	0	mg/L
Flower #1		N	P	K	Ca	Mg	S	Cu	Fe	Mo	Zn	B	Mn	Si
Full-Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	102.38	51.59	206.71	95.77	52.51	87.52	0.13	2.44	0.01	0.19	0.38	0.77	0.00
50% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	51.19	25.80	103.36	47.89	26.25	43.76	0.07	1.22	0.01	0.10	0.19	0.38	0.00
25% Strength	Total PPM (mg/L):	25.59	12.90	51.68	23.94	13.13	21.88	0.03	0.61	0.00	0.05	0.10	0.19	0.00

Oh also, if germinating directly in coco in the final pot, should i feed just plain ph balanced water for the first week or so? I’ve read a ton of conflicting information saying to feed plain water, and not to feed plain water but a very light nutrient solution.

Again, thanks a ton. I might actually give this “schedule” a run on a plant, makes perfect sense to me. I have actually considered using more of part 2 than part 1 for exactly these reasons, however green planets chart says to use at a 1:1 ratio. So I’m unsure if anything will get locked out by doing that.
Maybe I could send part of this to the team and see what they say about it?

 

[Bruce Campbell]

Oh also, if germinating directly in coco in the final pot, should i feed just plain ph balanced water for the first week or so? I’ve read a ton of conflicting information saying to feed plain water, and not to feed plain water but a very light nutrient solution.

There's no nutrients in coco, so you need to feed from the start. And, yes - you typically do use a lighter strength nutrient solution. The Veg #2 25% strength may be okay for that, but there should be other threads on the site that discuss specific coco germination methods that have worked for people that you could compare against.

Maybe I could send part of this to the team and see what they say about it?

If Green Planet has the type of customer service where you could get a response, I'd definitely send it to them for their input. They may know some details about their other products that I didn't consider - that schedule is only based on overall nutrient levels, not the specific chemical forms, compatibility, etc. I'm surprised their standard schedule is so unbalanced during veg, but a lot of companies tend to recommend a generic schedule that will work for the broadest customer base (e.g., other crops, etc).

 

[KootenayFullyAutomatic]

There's no nutrients in coco, so you need to feed from the start. And, yes - you typically do use a lighter strength nutrient solution. The Veg #2 25% strength may be okay for that, but there should be other threads on the site that discuss specific coco germination methods that have worked for people that you could compare against.



If Green Planet has the type of customer service where you could get a response, I'd definitely send it to them for their input. They may know some details about their other products that I didn't consider - that schedule is only based on overall nutrient levels, not the specific chemical forms, compatibility, etc. I'm surprised their standard schedule is so unbalanced during veg, but a lot of companies tend to recommend a generic schedule that will work for the broadest customer base (e.g., other crops, etc).

Awesome thanks, they have responded to me in the past. I have tried to find some info on germination, but not much luck other than “feed from seed, and feed light” so I guess I’ll start 1/4 and see how they react, should only be a couple feeds in the first week anyway.

Also green planet does say dual fuel is designed to be used at a 1:1 rate to make it simple for injector systems and novice growers, but I’ve also read is also designed to be used and adjusted as the individual grower seems fit. Still will send them a message just to be sure though.

also, would running the additives cause any issue to your chart? Or since they’re just sugars and vitamins I could go either way?

Liquid w8 is basically just sugars (sucrose, dextrose, fructose), Vitathrive seems to be vitamin b and 1% potash (only thing I can see being an issue is the potash), Rezin is just molybdenum and vitamin b.