Time for Truth: Do manufactured Nutrients Kill Soil Life

[Tony21]

You are on the same track as me here. I am always cautioning people about mycos in indoor growing for these very reasons. When we load up our soil they microlife does not need the comparatively expensive interactions with the plant and they do not trade. One part you might be missing there is that the "glue" you speak of is not just root exudates and enzymes from microbes, but also raw mineral chemistry. Humic and Fulvic acids to be precise. These are a byproduct of the redox cycles activated by microbes and pH level. One thing I see nearly everybody getting suckered by is that there are major differences in the indoor (pot) and outdoor (field) conditions of soil. Whats good in Ag is not good in the greenhouse, and vice versa.

Very well said, very cool observations

 

[calliandra]

You are on the same track as me here. I am always cautioning people about mycos in indoor growing for these very reasons. When we load up our soil they microlife does not need the comparatively expensive interactions with the plant and they do not trade. One part you might be missing there is that the "glue" you speak of is not just root exudates and enzymes from microbes, but also raw mineral chemistry. Humic and Fulvic acids to be precise. These are a byproduct of the redox cycles activated by microbes and pH level. One thing I see nearly everybody getting suckered by is that there are major differences in the indoor (pot) and outdoor (field) conditions of soil. Whats good in Ag is not good in the greenhouse, and vice versa.

yup the failure of mycorhizae to germinate and prosper when there is enough readily available P around is a very telling story in itself.

Actually, I don't understand humics much at all yet, except that they are extremely complex and variable in their configurations, and the product of biological action in the soil. So if you perchance know of texts that explain this in more depth, and ideally (ok thats probably going too far ) not just myopically chemically but within an functional/ecosystemic perspective, I'd love to read up on those!

As for differences between indoor and outdoor, I totally agree there are differences, but am not at all so sure they're so massive in principle as to be complete game changers
Cheers!

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

yup the failure of mycorhizae to germinate and prosper when there is enough readily available P around is a very telling story in itself.

Actually, I don't understand humics much at all yet, except that they are extremely complex and variable in their configurations, and the product of biological action in the soil. So if you perchance know of texts that explain this in more depth, and ideally (ok thats probably going too far ) not just myopically chemically but within an functional/ecosystemic perspective, I'd love to read up on those!

As for differences between indoor and outdoor, I totally agree there are differences, but am not at all so sure they're so massive in principle as to be complete game changers
Cheers!

The authoritative soil biology texts are:


David Sylvia - "Principles and Applications of Soil Microbiology"
Jacob Lipman - “soil as a complex living entity”
Jeff Lowenfels - "Teaming With Microbes"
and
J.W. Brown - "Principles of Microbial Diversity"


for Agroecology try

Stephen Gliessman - "Agroecology: The Ecology of Sustainable Food Systems"

for soil science
Garrison Sposito - "The Chemistry of Soils"


There are several things that do change the game. Time and soil volume are the two major changes. In field conditions, things react over years, inside reactions are within days and weeks. In the field there is a huge volume and diversity of factors that buffer pH and mineral cycles; and set the range of conditions in which plants evolved. Inside, you are not able to mimic nature no matter how smart or hard working you are.

 

[calliandra]

The authoritative soil biology texts are:

Jacob Lipman - “soil as a complex living entity”
Jeff Lowenfels - "Teaming With Microbes"
and
J.W. Brown - "Principles of Microbial Diversity"

for Agroecology try

Stephen Gliessman - "Agroecology: The Ecology of Sustainable Food Systems"

for soil science
Garrison Sposito - "The Chemistry of Soils"


There are several things that do change the game. Time and soil volume are the two major changes. In field conditions, things react over years, inside reactions are within days and weeks. In the field there is a huge volume and diversity of factors that buffer pH and mineral cycles; and set the range of conditions in which plants evolved. Inside, you are not able to mimic nature no matter how smart or hard working you are.

thanks, a few titles there I hadn't seen before, will definitely check them out!
But anything specifically on humics? Possibly there is nothing, yet haha

I quite agree on what you list as game changing.
Maybe I need to rethink my definition of what "game changing" means - or which part of it is the game haha
It's quite as you say! I'd also add as relevant factors the ecosystem-cutoff, you just can't replicate factors like that random hedgehog running through the garden at night, but then that also falls under the mimicry point you make.
Another thing I like to think of is that we are basically growing our plants in an inflated O+A horizon seldom to be found in nature. We take small-scale processes like decomposition and do them batchwise instead.
And I'd say even in the outdoors, and even if we are gardening naturally, we already employ strategies to accelerate natural processes so we can reap the benefits in our own lifetimes
But the underlying game of de- and recomposition, photosynthesis, etc. stays the same.
probably splitting hairs there ... haha
But nice to see that, hairs aside, we're actually talking of the same things

Cheers!

 

[pop22]

Its not my assertion, it is the misconception of the gardening community in general. I've always considered the concept suspect. I am however misinformed about EDTA as further reading suggests there are several "salts" of EDTA, used for different purposes. Further digging on greenleaf nutrients Megacrop information explains the EDTA problem as used in nutrients, and why the chose to use amino acids. And I agree, the excessive amount of nutrients many use, may well be toxic to soil life!


QUOTE="BII, post: 1652430, member: 25826"]I'd presume that the rather low concentrations of plant nutrients (which are inherently not toxic substances) in feed water, generally with already very dilute liquid nutrient solutions added at a few parts per 1000s, likely are not toxic to soil microbes. You assert that soil microbes "can't grow in them nasty nutrients." That statement seems suspect. If anything, wouldn't adding diverse soluble nutrients increase microbial growth? The nutrients plants need and the low concentrations in "chemical" feed solutions are generally not going to be toxic to other living organisms; and actual "soil microorganisms" are generally going to be pretty robust, so I doubt feeding "chemical" plant food is significantly killing-off soil microbial populations. Don't many soil growers [I grow hydro] sooner or later feed their plants "chemical" nutes, with this not causing severe adverse effects from killing off the soil microbes? If "chemical" nutes were actually nasty/toxic and killed soil microbial populations, wouldn't we all know that, wouldn't it be readily seen and common knowledge; but that's not the case.

I'd presume changing most any physical parameter, such as soil pH or temperature, will have more potential adverse impacts on soil microbial populations than plant nutrient solutions.

Note, EDTA is not an enzyme; it is not a catalyst. If anything, EDTA actually inactivates many enzymes (metalloenzymes) by sequestering metal ions (while also forming ion-chelate complexes, making the ions more water soluble/bioavailable).[/QUOTE]

 

[Rev. Green Genes]

thanks, a few titles there I hadn't seen before, will definitely check them out!
But anything specifically on humics? Possibly there is nothing, yet haha

Oh sorry, the one I added at the top (actually the best one) has some direct info on humic substances and their creation/ecological roles as catalysts. There is some research and published studies on them too. I don't know of a book on just humus though.

here's a link to the Humic thread where I put my college notes and some research on the subject.

https://www.autoflower.org/threads/busted-humic-and-fluvic-acids-do-not-occur-in-nature.62946/page-3

http://www.teravita.com/Humates/HumateIntro.htm

 

[calliandra]

Oh sorry, the one I added at the top (actually the best one) has some direct info on humic substances and their creation/ecological roles as catalysts. There is some research and published studies on them too. I don't know of a book on just humus though.

here's a link to the Humic thread where I put my college notes and some research on the subject.

https://www.autoflower.org/threads/busted-humic-and-fluvic-acids-do-not-occur-in-nature.62946/page-3

http://www.teravita.com/Humates/HumateIntro.htm

Thanks again!

it's interesting, I was following a link on the other thread and found this article discussing the repercussions of adding too much N to soils (and suggesting we should be adding humates for a more balanced processing):
https://humates.com/pdf/nvsc.pdf

While it describes more the deterioration of soil structure, it also points out how the nitrogen-fixing microbial populations are put out of business,unbalancing the ecosystem.
cheers!