Real Science vs Bro Science: Ohhh some of you are NOT going to like this!

[WildBill]

That they are a waste of time. The are also acidic and lower the PH of the soil. And that people will continue to sing the praises of teas even when science shows they do nothing of real value. It boils down to people believing what they want to believe vs the facts presented by science. Kinda like all the bullshit being spread denying the corona virus these days....

At my farm, I benefited from the ph change.

 

[WildBill]

One problem with this concept is that people brew the tea way too long. Population in the tea peaks and falls of with in 4-6 hours. Even then, you have fewer microbes. Which has more food for the microbes to breed in, A quart of compost or a quart of water with a handful of compost in it?. Lastly, as mentioned in the video, you have no idea WHAT microbes your propagating in the tea and whether or not they'll compete with the existing population to the determent of the plant. If you already have good, healthy organic soil, why disturb the population you have that is obviously doing a good job? Aren't we warned against distrubing the soil population in organic bed/pots by digging and raking? Isn't doing this just as bad?

This is why I added my farm dirt to the compost pile. But it is a valid point,

 

[pop22]

I would suspect that what you have actually done is turn your compost into a liquid and trhat it is the compost content, not the microbes that is adding a quick shot of nutrients to the top couple inches of the soil and that the microbes in it are not really adding much of anything.

Yes, compost piles can go anaerobic. But it still turns into usable compost given time. Isn't that what bokashi is? Once the pile is aerated, doesn't the anerobic life die off? Do you think it can survive placed into well aerated soil? I doubt it

A pile can go anaerobic from being too wet, adding too much meat(I've never added meat), too fine material without larger material. Combine too wet and too fine and it will go anaerobic quick! I had several contacts of companies that cleared power lines of trees to dump their shredded tree trimmings on a location on my farm. Crazy good stuff to add to a compost pile that also keep air in the pile.
Sure you're gonna get a BETTER benefit from just applying the compost to the soil, but it's silly to say the benefit is too small using teas. I've sprayed a field several days after a good rain, after the green up from the rain, and got MORE of a green up the next day. That quick of a green up mainly would come from the nutes in the tea as a foliar feed, but that section stayed green longer than other parts of the field.
This all being said, a very valid point could be made that in LARGE operations, just applying the compost to the soil is a better economical option with sizable labor and fuel savings. This wouldn't apply to a home or small canna grow. I felt it was still viable for me since I put the used compost on my garden.
When I was finished with brewing the teas, I took the heavy ass bags and dumped the material on to my garden. When I first started mass brewing teas, I had my Mom make the bags waaaay too big to get outta the tank without straining my ass far too much! LOL! I modded the fiberglass 500gal tanks to have a larger top to get bigger bags in. It still made things easier when I switched to the smaller ones. Live and learn!

 

[bil]

I agree, you need food to support them, for sure.

I did a quick google search on reproduction rate of bacteria and founds this "some bacteria like Escherichia coli can divide every 20 minutes. This means that in just 7 hours one bacterium can generate 2,097,152 bacteria " e coli - eww, a nasty choice for the example I admit, but I know but it reproduces just like all the others. were talking about taking one bacterium and making it into 2 million in just 7 hours time. Bacteria can reproduce FAST! I'd wager there may be more in my bucket than the pile as long as my timing is right.

I really wish I had a microscope so I could get a count on the microbes after a brew. I have been relying on the experience of others so far for that.

I have heard that bacteria come first, then fungal, and if you are lucky, maybe some of the bigger micro organisms too. (but they had to be present to begin with) I like to top up my brew with food throughout the brewing cycle. Adding molasses half way through to make sure they stay fed.

I like to brew for 24-36, sometimes as long as 48 hours. (Maybe it's too long, but it seems to be working great for me) the tea is so slippery and slimy I can literally feel the biofilm in it.

You are right that I don't know who what what type of bacteria I have in here. I'd wager that they are the same ones that were originally present, but maybe in different ratios now. But for the most part, we (humans) don't know what all the different microbes are for either and that's kind of the point. The rizosphere know's what it (the plant) wants, and it will foster for those types of microbes to become dominant in the rootzone via exudates. The plant is behind the steering wheel, not me. I just try to provide the best road possible for it to travel on.

Tim Wilson is the main dude I have learned about most of this from. He has a killer amount of info available on http://microbeorganics.com/

All said and done, so far... I like the results of ditching bottled nutes and doing this instead. It's more work than paying to use a pre prepared bottle of nutes (that will actually kill the microbes in the soil and make the plant dependent on my nutrient regime). But I'm ok with that extra effort. I am passionate about this and the final product (my medicine) speaks for itself, imo.

I am 100% for improving on it any way I can.

 

[WildBill]

I would suspect that what you have actually done is turn your compost into a liquid and trhat it is the compost content, not the microbes that is adding a quick shot of nutrients to the top couple inches of the soil and that the microbes in it are not really adding much of anything.

Yes, compost piles can go anaerobic. But it still turns into usable compost given time. Isn't that what bokashi is? Once the pile is aerated, doesn't the anerobic life die off? Do you think it can survive placed into well aerated soil? I doubt it

The nutes are in the tea for sure and it does take away from the remains of the compost. The bacteria didn't foliar feed the plant, the nutes did.
As for the anaerobic bacteria, if you have a mass kill of them, isn't it possible that there are toxins produced?
I'll be the first to admit that I'm ignorant as hell on the topic of anaerobic bacteria. All I basically know is that I add them every month to my septic tank. LOL!

 

[bil]

As for the anaerobic bacteria, if you have a mass kill of them, isn't it possible that there are toxins produced?

got me thinking about red tide events in the ocean with that one.

 

[WildBill]

As always.......Good stuff pop22 !!!!!!!

 

[pop22]

And thank you the good discussion!

As always.......Good stuff pop22 !!!!!!!

 

[bil]

Lastly, as mentioned in the video, you have no idea WHAT microbes your propagating in the tea and whether or not they'll compete with the existing population to the determent of the plant. If you already have good, healthy organic soil, why disturb the population you have that is obviously doing a good job? Aren't we warned against distrubing the soil population in organic bed/pots by digging and raking? Isn't doing this just as bad?

A very good point, I would be very sad if I were adding bad actors into the party. Having good quality sources for your inputs is key here I think.

why disturb? Because I think of these teas as a booster shot for the players who are down there. A re-up in the ranks, if you will.

I also subscribe to the not disturbing the soil structure. I try not to till the surface ever. I know that doing so exposes the microbes that are closer to the surface and they die.

When I was finished with brewing the teas, I took the heavy ass bags and dumped the material on to my garden. When I first started mass brewing teas, I had my Mom make the bags waaaay too big to get outta the tank without straining my ass far too much! LOL! I modded the fiberglass 500gal tanks to have a larger top to get bigger bags in. It still made things easier when I switched to the smaller ones. Live and learn!

I think it's so cool you have large scale experience with this. I am just growing and doing this work in a couple of tents. Outside, I use nutes and grow more traditionally.

 

[WildBill]

got me thinking about red tide events in the ocean with that one.

That's the reason I've never looked into it. But I ASSume its the specific ba

A very good point, I would be very sad if I were adding bad actors into the party. Having good quality sources for your inputs is key here I think.

why disturb? Because I think of these teas as a booster shot for the players who are down there. A re-up in the ranks, if you will.

I also subscribe to the not disturbing the soil structure. I try not to till the surface ever. I know that doing so exposes the microbes that are closer to the surface and they die.



I think it's so cool you have large scale experience with this. I am just growing and doing this work in a couple of tents. Outside, I use nutes and grow more traditionally.

I haven't bought or used chemical nutes since I was in Navy housing in Iroquois Point, Oahu, Hawaii. I HAD to use what they supplied. Stopped that crap when I bought a home in Ewa Beach!
When I first started organics at my farm, getting a REAL soil test was almost impossible to get. All I'd get is the NPK bs and their sillyass recommendations. I finally found one university that would do a proper soil analysis.
My farm's soil was in horrible organic condition when I bought it. I'll admit that I would have continued the damn chemical program if my water well hadn't been close to my garden spot.......and if I could have kept my GrandMa outta my dreams! LMMFAO! Yeah, she came to my dreams SEVERAL times after I bought my farm and scolded me for thinking about not using organics. GrandMa and I were pretty tight. I was about 40 miles away when she died, but I instantly knew the moment when she died.
I started an organic program about the most simple and very cost effective way by paddock rotation. Basically you rotate your animals between fenced off paddocks as the eat down the food, they "fertilize" it. Electric fencing made it pretty easy. It just took a bit of planning and a watchful eye. Since I was raising cattle, there was a bit of soil compaction, but was fixed with physical aeration. Great for Coastal Bermuda by cutting the rhizomes it causes two shoots to come up for each cut.