Leaves vs Roots

[The Iconoclast]

This is my thinking, due to what I've seen from my own grows where I strip most leaves off all through the grow, depending on particular circumstances and I also use a hydro system that guarantees the largest finest root system possible (pretty nearly) in this size container, which is about 4 gal with an extra space underneath for extra springy roots in a shallow water culture. I only mention this so you can see my reasoning.

I've search a lot on the web to try and get some specific information but I have been unable. Anyway I figure the leaves are just there for making stuff and that the trichomes which is what we want appear on the flower and each trichome has it's own little factory or maybe one little thc factory does more I'm not sure, anyway so I'm thinking but what do the leaves do as their day job?

It's all about ATP and sugars mainly for the bulk needs. Basically a form of energy to drive everything in the end the trichomes and thc production need to be driven. So I'm guessing the main source of energy is going to be stored in the roots, they are not just intake tubes for nutrients. Lots of roots are like this. So I'm thinking then that the leaves are needed to build the root structure and stock it with all the good things the plant will need. That kinda makes sense because in a catastrophic leaf loss the plant would still be able to pump out flowers.

So where I'm going with this is for those who seem to think that defoliation is not good, I'd urge them to think why they need the leaves then if my thinking is correct they should then think further to the roots, so then it would make more sense to improve the roots. And the best way to do that is a shallow water culture.

Now I'm not saying this is right, it makes sense to me and I cannot find any other information on the web to back this up or knock it down.

So that's why a shallow water culture hydro, not dwc hydro is the way to go, and as for defoliation there's always enough healthy leaves on the plant to continually produce products to store in the roots to use during budding.


TL : DR

If you worry whether to defoliate or not, better to think about going hydro. Then defoliation is a no brainer.

 

[Citadel]

Not sure I agree with this but I'm no expert but most of your root building is done in the dark cycle. Generally all root mass will be formed in the first couple of weeks when you have next to no leaves, photosynthesis is not part of the root development.

Clones are put in 48 hr of darkness at the beginning, as for flower production that does require photosynthesis which is performed leaves so more leaves the better the flowers.

Sent from my PRA-LX1 using Tapatalk

 

[The Iconoclast]

Not sure I agree with this but I'm no expert but most of your root building is done in the dark cycle. Generally all root mass will be formed in the first couple of weeks when you have next to no leaves, photosynthesis is not part of the root development.

Clones are put in 48 hr of darkness at the beginning, as for flower production that does require photosynthesis which is performed leaves so more leaves the better the flowers.

Sent from my PRA-LX1 using Tapatalk

Hi, I'm just starting a discussion and I will attempt to persuade, but I'm always prepared to be persuaded, I will play the devils advocate which some people get annoyed about thinking that you're trying to prove them wrong. As I said at the start I can find no actual science I'm just hypothesising.



as for flower production that does require photosynthesis which is performed leaves so more leaves the better the flowers.

Two comments I'd make on that is 1. as you say the leaves photo synthesise, but we are interested in the product which is building glucose, I know it's stored in the organelles in the leaf cells and what I have not yet been able to find out is, if they also store it in organelles in the roots. 2. With regards to the last bit, I have already proved to my self that "so more leaves the better the flowers" is not true, it seems logical but since I strip leaves now continually and by the time they're about to go big time there's virtually no decent sized leaves, but what there is is lots of light hitting all the bud site. And buds without leaves exposed to good light produce better that bud sites with lots of leaves due to the blockage of the light. So it seems to me since plants photosynthise in everything from the stems to the petioles, calyxes and sugar leaves with the uninterrupted 20 hours of light it makes sense that they would be able to produce what is necessary.

This is what finally convinced me these are just about to burst and I've been stripping leaves continuously only leaving a few fan leave if they are not covering anything. Two days later more leaf removal a week later more flowering stems off to let more light in and some more leaves off which ends up like this and finally and the buds are excellent so that's good enough for me. This is the difference between believed knowledge and knowledge that you find out for yourself. Once you've seen it with your own eyes so you know it's true no amount of bafflegab or citations or appeals to authority are going to change my mind.

 

[Simplicio]

This is my thinking, due to what I've seen from my own grows where I strip most leaves off all through the grow, depending on particular circumstances and I also use a hydro system that guarantees the largest finest root system possible (pretty nearly) in this size container, which is about 4 gal with an extra space underneath for extra springy roots in a shallow water culture. I only mention this so you can see my reasoning.

I've search a lot on the web to try and get some specific information but I have been unable. Anyway I figure the leaves are just there for making stuff and that the trichomes which is what we want appear on the flower and each trichome has it's own little factory or maybe one little thc factory does more I'm not sure, anyway so I'm thinking but what do the leaves do as their day job?

It's all about ATP and sugars mainly for the bulk needs. Basically a form of energy to drive everything in the end the trichomes and thc production need to be driven. So I'm guessing the main source of energy is going to be stored in the roots, they are not just intake tubes for nutrients. Lots of roots are like this. So I'm thinking then that the leaves are needed to build the root structure and stock it with all the good things the plant will need. That kinda makes sense because in a catastrophic leaf loss the plant would still be able to pump out flowers.

So where I'm going with this is for those who seem to think that defoliation is not good, I'd urge them to think why they need the leaves then if my thinking is correct they should then think further to the roots, so then it would make more sense to improve the roots. And the best way to do that is a shallow water culture.

Now I'm not saying this is right, it makes sense to me and I cannot find any other information on the web to back this up or knock it down.

So that's why a shallow water culture hydro, not dwc hydro is the way to go, and as for defoliation there's always enough healthy leaves on the plant to continually produce products to store in the roots to use during budding.

TL : DR
If you worry whether to defoliate or not, better to think about going hydro. Then defoliation is a no brainer.

You are drastically over-thinking this.
Leaves are solar panels that plants have developed over billions of years of time to make best use of the sun's spectrum.
Leaves power trichomes
No leaves = No trichomes
Fewer leaves = less energy production to fuel trichomes
It's possible to have huge yielding autos without ever cutting off anything that's healthy green.

 

[The Iconoclast]

You are drastically over-thinking this.
Leaves are solar panels that plants have developed over billions of years of time to make best use of the sun's spectrum.
Leaves power trichomes
No leaves = No trichomes
Fewer leaves = less energy production to fuel trichomes
It's possible to have huge yielding autos without ever cutting off anything that's healthy green.

Well I've just shown you a plant in a single 4 gallon pot, (with a bit of extra hanging out the bottom) that produced 18 zips and the photos above were to show how much and how often leaves were stripped and I've shown the final result. I can post close ups of the heads if necessary. And you have simply made some statements that sound like common sense but they contradict my photographic evidence to the contrary.

So my question to you is who am I to believe, you, or my own eyes? Please explain to me why the evidence I have just shown you has not at least given you pause for thought. I certainly couldn't get any more product out of it, I needed to chop out 5 zips early just to be able to let the other 13 sit for 4 more weeks. In fact as you can see by the photos I've posted, there are quite a few flowering stems in there, meaning I already had way too many buds that could fit into the space.

 

[blue]

Ooooh Defoliation debate

It's still strong in 2019

My personal opinion (hehe, because we all like our 2 cents ^_^ ) ... Is (for autoflowers)

It's Strain dependant to some degree - some are more hardy than others.
It's Medium dependant - Hydro plants grow more vigorously and can heal more quickly.

The potential "issue" with defoliation is the time/energy spent in recovery when you're on a life and death timer.
Does the extra benefits of the buds not being shaded outweigh the recovery process?? - I don't know .. depends on the environment (including medium) and the plant.

What's strange is you don't (or i don't) see breeders suggesting defoliation .. although leaf tucking is commonly advised.



I'll be back in 3 or so years for another look! ^_^

 

[The Iconoclast]

Ooooh Defoliation debate



It's still strong in 2019

My personal opinion (hehe, because we all like our 2 cents ^_^ ) ... Is (for autoflowers)

It's Strain dependant to some degree - some are more hardy than others.
It's Medium dependant - Hydro plants grow more vigorously and can heal more quickly.

The potential "issue" with defoliation is the time/energy spent in recovery when you're on a life and death timer.
Does the extra benefits of the buds not being shaded outweigh the recovery process?? - I don't know .. depends on the environment (including medium) and the plant.

What's strange is you don't (or i don't) see breeders suggesting defoliation .. although leaf tucking is commonly advised.



I'll be back in 3 or so years for another look! ^_^

Hi Blue, well to answer your points first I'd remind you that the defoliation part only came about as an extra side benefit to the big root structure. So what I'm saying is that far from this being a defoliation battle, it is in fact a defoliation funeral. As you said hydro give more vigorous growth, but the SWC system has another benefit of causing no recovery period at all. And I'm only vouching for this particular system. I'm saying if you use this SWC method, then not only will you have the sort of root structure to build a powerful plant but it kills the defoliate or not to defoliate question, dead.

 

[Simplicio]

Well I've just shown you a plant in a single 4 gallon pot, (with a bit of extra hanging out the bottom) that produced 18 zips and the photos above were to show how much and how often leaves were stripped and I've shown the final result. I can post close ups of the heads if necessary. And you have simply made some statements that sound like common sense but they contradict my photographic evidence to the contrary.

So my question to you is who am I to believe, you, or my own eyes? Please explain to me why the evidence I have just shown you has not at least given you pause for thought. I certainly couldn't get any more product out of it, I needed to chop out 5 zips early just to be able to let the other 13 sit for 4 more weeks. In fact as you can see by the photos I've posted, there are quite a few flowering stems in there, meaning I already had way too many buds that could fit into the space.

Without a control plant yours isn't a real experiment.
I've gotten that much out of un-pruned plants, but that just depends on canopy area.
Maybe an un-pruned control plant would've yielded more.
Here's one grower who did a side-by-side test of pruning vs no pruning, and he says pruning got him smaller buds, and 10% less herb.
https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/defoliation-side-by-side-bushy-plants.101534/page-11#post-2269250

Another pruning issue is that it slows plants down, which reduces yield per month.
Pruning off all the leaves would slow growth to zero.
Pruning nothing slows the plant not at all.
Pruning something falls somewhere in between, but admittedly closer to the prune-nothing.

 

[AutoWonders]

Ooooh Defoliation debate

Good one!

 

[The Iconoclast]

Without a control plant yours isn't a real experiment.
I've gotten that much out of un-pruned plants, but that just depends on canopy area.
Maybe an un-pruned control plant would've yielded more.
Here's one grower who did a side-by-side test of pruning vs no pruning, and he says pruning got him smaller buds, and 10% less herb.
https://www.thcfarmer.com/threads/defoliation-side-by-side-bushy-plants.101534/page-11#post-2269250

Another pruning issue is that it slows plants down, which reduces yield per month.
Pruning off all the leaves would slow growth to zero.
Pruning nothing slows the plant not at all.
Pruning something falls somewhere in between, but admittedly closer to the prune-nothing.

You've just made statements that provide no information at all. For example Another pruning issue is that it slows plants down, which reduces yield per month. That's demonstrably not true I can prove it, have already proved it. I have no idea at all what you are trying to say, much less would I want a link to a random defoliation thread when there are a bazillion of them. I don't do other peoples research I do my own, and I present my results which speak for themselves.