In search of answers about genetic inheritance of 3-way hybrids

[CannaDaTaBiz]

Hi,

I was wondering that because F1 hybrid of two stable, but different strains will result in more uniform phenotypes than the F2 generation. This is because the which ever genes are dominant in the original strains have stabilized and F1 is a mixture of these dominant genes from both, but at F2 some new(/mixed) genes gain dominance over old dominant genes and also old dominant genes from one parent start to show up in more pure form, right?

So this got me wondering about if i were to make this type of mix (strain A x strain B) x (strain A x strain C), so that this would sort of be like some sort of meta F2 of strain A, but some trio what ever F1 overall and this sort of "meta F1" between strain B and C.

I should note that im thinking more of stuff like type of high, terpene profile, THC and other cannabinoid levels, density, bushiness vs more focused on single cola, purple vs green etc. Not things involved in crossing photo with auto and then stabilizing autoflowering. I know how to stabilize autoflowering trait, but not so much about other traits mentioned earlier and there are some holes in my understanding of the genetics im hoping to find answers to.

Would the resulting hybrid between the 3 plants be more like a random mixture of about 50% A, 25% B and 25% C traits?

Would it get more of the traits that expressed themselves in F1 of A x B, mixed with traits that expressed themselves in A x C?

Would the genes of strain A be more mixed around in the offsprings in terms of what of its genes dominate and which doesent, but be more uniform(typical in F1 hybrids of two stable strains) between strains B and C?

Would the dominance of traits/genes of pure A, B and C play a large role?

Or would it be something way more complex?

And how would or would this legendary F1 hybrid vigour thing work in this sort of hybrid between 3 strains?


Any sort of rambling or just education about the terminology is welcome

Thanks,

 

[Olderfart]

I await other comments with interest. No experience here, but I think the results will be very difficult to predict. If you want stability, I think you are going to have to go to a lot higher than F1/F2. Just guessing though...

Good luck with it!

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

I await other comments with interest. No experience here, but I think the results will be very difficult to predict. If you want stability, I think you are going to have to go to a lot higher than F1/F2. Just guessing though...

Good luck with it!

Actually stability is not what im after Im more interested in making seeds that are for example mostly sativa, but varies, then others that are mostly indica, but varies, so that i can get sort of controlled variance in my garden

But the question in OP is just a part of figuring out the best way to go with this project.

 

[Proph]

That's called a poly hybrid.. You can read up on poly hybrids and their stability with a Google search. It can get deep.. But poly hybrids are often considered to be unstable and have varying pheno expressions.

 

[Olderfart]

Actually stability is not what im after Im more interested in making seeds that are for example mostly sativa, but varies, then others that are mostly indica, but varies, so that i can get sort of controlled variance in my garden

But the question in OP is just a part of figuring out the best way to go with this project.

If variance is what you are after, I expect you will have enough of it. However, without stability in your crosses you may have a tough time choosing which seeds to plant, or which seedlings to invest a grow in. The main reason that I prefer to grow stabilized genetics from reputable breeders is that I can choose the nature and degree of variability that I include in the garden, and usually have the results somewhat match my intent. Yes, this means paying for the seeds, but for my size of grow, that isn't a big deal for me.

OTOH, if you choose your crosses carefully, you may be able to confine variability within limits that work for you. A lot of work to find out though. If you go this route, I suggest doing crosses between strains that are similar rather than, for example, crossing a strong long flowering period sativa with a strong quick finishing indica. If your intent is to have a sativa line with some variability, but retaining predominantly sativa characteristics, cross sativas that are at least somewhat similar in the characteristics you are interested in, and ditto for the indica side of your breeding. I expect that you may end up with more unpredictability than you enjoy, but I could be full of beans.

As I said, just theoretical musing from a noob, so take it accordingly. Good luck with it.

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

If variance is what you are after, I expect you will have enough of it. However, without stability in your crosses you may have a tough time choosing which seeds to plant, or which seedlings to invest a grow in. The main reason that I prefer to grow stabilized genetics from reputable breeders is that I can choose the nature and degree of variability that I include in the garden, and usually have the results somewhat match my intent. Yes, this means paying for the seeds, but for my size of grow, that isn't a big deal for me.

OTOH, if you choose your crosses carefully, you may be able to confine variability within limits that work for you. A lot of work to find out though. If you go this route, I suggest doing crosses between strains that are similar rather than, for example, crossing a strong long flowering period sativa with a strong quick finishing indica. If your intent is to have a sativa line with some variability, but retaining predominantly sativa characteristics, cross sativas that are at least somewhat similar in the characteristics you are interested in, and ditto for the indica side of your breeding. I expect that you may end up with more unpredictability than you enjoy, but I could be full of beans.

As I said, just theoretical musing from a noob, so take it accordingly. Good luck with it.

Yea well i have Plan A, B and C for now and then ill see how to continue from there

Plan A is simple. i took cuttings from a chemdogging that seems to grow exceptionally well thus far, its bit over a week in flowering. Plan is to turn one of the cuttings male completely and one of them half, pollinate itself and multiple other strains with it. Varying from sativa to indica and hybrids. Hopefully this works, one branch seems it might be too far into flowering, so lets see what happens with it.

Plan B is these two(and last out of few) plants that are mix between blackberry kush and old school low ryder x 2 photos mix. Im hoping to get a male to start a regular(non feminized) autoflower seed line from.

Plan C is this one other old school autoflower seed im hoping to get a male from to cross with modern autoflowers and start a regular line of seeds from it.

Right now i have those 3 regular seeds and 4 x wedding cake auto fem seeds(im planning to pollinate) popping up soon i hope and those cuttings that have yet rooted. Once i get some pollen and room on my tent, i will buy a bunch of other seeds. 3 seeds each of 4 different strains i think and then pollinate the best looking one of each strain quite a bit and only a bit of others just in case they end up being far superior after they finish.

These old school autos i have are far inferior to current best autoflowers, but can help me get regular seeds out of fem ones and hopefully add a touch of uniqueness that wont ruin the genetic lineage forever If i manage to get some pollen out of them to continue their genetic line, i will surely cross it at least twice to modern autoflower genetics before making more or fem'd seeds from them.

 

[MrToad]

There is a why f2 apppear dramtically different that f1's...

When you are breeding two stable strains successive offspring show little variation because most traits that have been pinned down...they are homozygous...meaning having two dominant (XX), or two recessive (xx)!alleles...with the f1 generation...Dominant traits are still going to be visually the the same expressed in the phenotype (physical representation) although genotypically different...When you breed these f1's together to produce f2's there is going to be variation expressed through recessive traits that would not otherwise be revealed in the f1's. These recessives will materialize phenotypically..as they will be homozygous

I would suggest building out you strain one trait at a time as opposed to creating a shitmix and hoping for the best...Find parent plants with traits you find most desirable first..then cross in one trait at a time to develop your strain..otherwise there is just to many moving parts..(you will need multiple generations for each trait to stabilize)

Each trait you want to stabilize first, whether it be dominant or recessive...meaning you want it to be homozygous..heterozygous, although. visually the same, produce inconsistencies when breeding future generation.

Cheers
Mr Toad

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

There is a why f2 apppear dramtically different that f1's...

When you are breeding two stable strains successive offspring show little variation because most traits that have been pinned down...they are homozygous...meaning having two dominant (XX), or two recessive (xx)!alleles...with the f1 generation...Dominant traits are still going to be visually the the same expressed in the phenotype (physical representation) although genotypically different...When you breed these f1's together to produce f2's there is going to be variation expressed through recessive traits that would not otherwise be revealed in the f1's. These recessives will materialize phenotypically..as they will be homozygous

Hmm. So if i understand this correctly, this is the same reason i mentioned in first post, but worded differently? I forgot the term recessive etc.

My question was not about this, but about if the hybrid has 3 different strains, so that its technically F1 hybrid, but some sort of "pseudo F2" for one of the 3 strains. Whether these dominant vs recessive genes work as if the plant was F2 from one side, but F1 from other sides, or just a random mess with 50% chance for strain A etc etc or how would this sort of hybrid pan out?

Trying to google this specific question just leads me to study genetics in general and in too much depth in areas i need to study to understand and to understand those things i need to first study another things.. or people arguing how polyhybrid is defined on other forums or just basic info i already know.

I would suggest building out you strain one trait at a time as opposed to creating a shitmix and hoping for the best...Find parent plants with traits you find most desirable first..then cross in one trait at a time to develop your strain..otherwise there is just to many moving parts..(you will need multiple generations for each trait to stabilize)

Each trait you want to stabilize first, whether it be dominant or recessive...meaning you want it to be homozygous..heterozygous, although. visually the same, produce inconsistencies when breeding future generation.

Cheers
Mr Toad

But the thing is that I have a dream, im not looking to create a stable strain, at least not yet. If i find something i really like, then i might try to make something more specific and more stable. Now my dream is to have tons of seeds. Few different types of seeds that are mostly sativa, 2 different hybrids and mostly indica, preferably at one point also pure indica and pure sativa. I want variation between these mostly sativas for example, i dont want to smoke same sativa all year long, but i want to grow different plants that vary a bit in this "sativa-indica scale", but are still mostly sativa. I want to have a collection of jars with these sativa weeds stacked from different grows, all unique smokes, some perhaps a bit better than others etc, and the crappiest phenotypes can be made to hash or oil.

Since i have quite limited space to do this project in, i need to be creative to make the most of it. Idea is to first have as good genes as possible and go with the route of trial and error, but keeping the amount of damage that an error could do at minimum. Meaning that i have to toss some pollen, but i dont want to pollinate all plants, just more of the best looking ones and a bit of the not best. Because i cant make some mother plant that i keep alive and take clones from with autoflowers, some trial is required. However i dont have to continue growing something i didnt enjoy.

What i have to do is to control the pollinator and the pollinated to have the best chance of good offsprings. I have thought of ways to do this

So, lets say that this chemdogging pheno i have a cutting of trying to root ends up being really frosty and making a great yield and having a nice high, besides looking really really good(easily the best i have grown) at this point early in flowering. Which btw i will have to evaluate before tossing its pollen onto many others, so this is where i get some control over the pollinator. Its already selected based on genetic background and best looking one out of 3 during veg and very early flowering. And also if the plant doesent end up being worthy of continuing for some reason, i will only have one strain pollinated with it, wedding cake auto, which i have 4 girls coming soon to choose the best out of for more pollination and very little pollen for other 3 wedding cakes just in case they end up being better. I will also toss some pollen over one of my own old school autoflower from it, unless it turns up being a male and also to other 2 i have coming along the others soon, but these will be more just for preservation of genetics rather than getting good seeds to pop, but maybe some nice henos will arise from them as well, who knows.

Similar idea to what i have coming for wedding cakes will be expanded to others, selecting the best performer from each strain until its time to pollinate, pollinating that more and others less just in case. That is if the chemdogging pheno i have in mind for this performs. Others will be sativa dominant, hybrid and indica dominant, likely 4 different strains.

If i cannot get really frosty pheno out of some of those 4 strains, then i will likely not be growing those seeds that much. I would instead grow more those seeds that were produced in the frostiest plants that grew out the best overall, these will also be the ones that would be used in further breeding.

^that is how i plan to control the "pollinated" side of genes. Also if i happen to get males from these 3 non fem seeds i have germinating, it might change these plans a bit and force me to introduce genes that have been bred for surviving the short northern summers outside, not that heavily focused on selection for potency. Which i know will up the chances of getting crappy phenos in its offsprings and would require more breeding back to modern autoflowers to stabilize potency at least.

I know choosing the best out of 3 or 4 is not as good as having large fields of each strain, but if the genes are good to begin with, i doubt there would be any major decline in the genes in just one generation of not THAT careful selection.

This isnt all that bad plan, or?

 

[MrToad]

Sorry Canna..

I'm having a bit if a challenge following you write up..a little wordy..my apologies...

Perhaps here are a few suggestions you can take the ball and run with..

You mention you dont have much space...that said, do you have two different spaces? You will need to isolate the male...

Second, you talk about some plant being super frosty..yet getting pollen from it? So...you're either talking about a male, which is not likely to be super frosty, or you have reversed a branch or two on a super frosty female..Not sure to what your referring?

A few options..
One you have a pollinator you like..isolate it and collect pollen...You can selectively paint that pollen on to you selected females...You can even pollinate one female with several different males selectively..you can lightly mist branches you dont want pollenated with water before you pollenate your selected branch.. just make sure to mark the individual branches with twist ties..Give them 2-3 days to take..then mist the plant to kill any stray pollen...Once dry, you can pollenate another branch with different pollen

Save pollen from males and fem'd females by drying pollen...mix dried pollen with 10 parts dry baking flour to one part pollen.flour will act as a desiccant .Put the pollen in gel caps that you can buy at most health food store...Need to limit air and humidity..Put those gel caps in a second sealed container..Pop it in your freezer for up to a year to pollenate your next female..(Use multiple gel caps for pollen as once you remove it from freezer its done)..Thaw for a few hours before use..

You're not looking for any stability..so there is really no breeding advice to offer...

Best of luck with the Cowboy strategy..

Cheers

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

Sorry Canna..

I'm having a bit if a challenge following you write up..a little wordy..my apologies...

Perhaps here are a few suggestions you can take the ball and run with..

You mention you dont have much space...that said, do you have two different spaces? You will need to isolate the male...

Second, you talk about some plant being super frosty..yet getting pollen from it? So...you're either talking about a male, which is not likely to be super frosty, or you have reversed a branch or two on a super frosty female..Not sure to what your referring?

A few options..
One you have a pollinator you like..isolate it and collect pollen...You can selectively paint that pollen on to you selected females...You can even pollinate one female with several different males selectively..you can lightly mist branches you dont want pollenated with water before you pollenate your selected branch.. just make sure to mark the individual branches with twist ties..Give them 2-3 days to take..then mist the plant to kill any stray pollen...Once dry, you can pollenate another branch with different pollen

Save pollen from males and fem'd females by drying pollen...mix dried pollen with 10 parts dry baking flour to one part pollen.flour will act as a desiccant .Put the pollen in gel caps that you can buy at most health food store...Need to limit air and humidity..Put those gel caps in a second sealed container..Pop it in your freezer for up to a year to pollenate your next female..(Use multiple gel caps for pollen as once you remove it from freezer its done)..Thaw for a few hours before use..

You're not looking for any stability..so there is really no breeding advice to offer...

Best of luck with the Cowboy strategy..

Cheers

We dont need to go to that basics as having to isolate males that should be quite apparent from the text if you read it. You know, I was tossing various different AF pollens 14 years ago, when there wasnt much other commercial strains than low ryder.. But took quite a long break from the hobby. I was also extremely enthusiastic about breeding my own auto strains, as there werent much commercially available. So your sources for AF genes were pretty limited, trying to score some that others mixed between photos and low ryders on forums was your best bet, unless ofc you made your own. I was lucky enough to score some seeds from forums and IRL and still have a few seeds i made with them back in the days. These old af genes would be my source to get regular seeds. Pollen from a frosty plant, which i smoked the weed of and took a cutting from and currently id s female, will naturally be converted into making male flowers for pollen. As you know these would result in fem'd seeds and something i would prefer to be the "end product".

Yes there was a lot of text, but this particular thing seems quite complex and requires more than just a few words to express in more depth.

And yes im not looking for stability, but preditability for the frames inside which there is instability. For example seeds that are sativa dominant, but different. Another that is mostly indica stone with varying low to non existent levels of cerebral sativa high.