High Variation in Autoflowers

[N/A-Greengo]

But then we have to get buy in from EVERYONE to enforce expectations by supporting the good breeders & not purchasing from the bad ones.

I agree, and this most importantly begins at the most common denominator... The 'Seed Bank'.

 

[Olde School Player]

What 10 cultivars have you grown, and from what Breeders?

Sorry I overlooked this when you posted, caught it looking back.
10 cultivars? No, I've been growing auto's for 9 years, and I'll be starting my 38th grow next week. Before that an untold number of photoperiods going back to the early '70's. If my Mama ever found out, heh heh heh.
Like most of us, my first foray into auto's was a freebie Northern Lights / Big Bud from World of Seeds. I wont try to call them all out, but I'll hit the highlights.
I've grown seeds from Greenhouse, TH Seeds (multiple grows, LOVE their BubbleGum, consistent quality & high yielding 12.4 oz.),
Humboldt (Seed Co. and Org's), average to mediocre, nothing worth mentioning.
Blimburn - their Mamba Negra was an amazing Freebie, tried three follow through purchases, none ever even came close.
G-13 Labs, sent me a full male autoflower, wish I'd kept it but they pissed me off trying to say they couldnt discuss germination - I know - f$%& them. Dutch Passion - multiple low yielding disappointments but the smoke was decent,
Dinafem Blue Cheese was awesome, 10.4 oz single plant, classic cheese smoke.
I went almost exclusively with Fast Buds for a number of years when they were marketing as American Autoflowers. They caught wind of my medical donations and gifted me seeds for a couple of years. Their Rhino Ryder was the first single plant pounder I grew, an 18.5oz slow flower monster that almost replicated with a 14.5 oz. follow up. Then Fast Buds' first release Gorilla Glue was the best autoflower smoke to-date and a 12+ oz. plant. Future grows from purchased seeds went downhill until it only yielded 5.3 oz. and was no longer recognizable to the original strain. Honestly, I was ashamed to even give away the last crop. Their StarDawg was OK, 12+ oz yield but a bear to trim excess leafiness.
A bright spot from Fast Buds - G14. It's been a shorter plant with very good yields (8+ to 11+ oz), great bud quality and heavy frost, their one stable shining star for me. Their Green Crack has also been a consistently heavy yielder, 14.5 oz. & a 16+ oz. pounder that was almost a slow flower (96 days). Was worth waiting for.
Fast Buds Tangie? Great idea, first efforts were great, 13 oz. on first, disappointing prime example of instability with only 7.5 oz. on the second grow, better yield 10.8 oz third try but inferior quality. Great examples of instability in the strain.
A Bomb Seeds' THC Bomb freebie almost reached pounder status, 14.6 oz. and great smoke. But my seed bank didn't stock so I didnt repeat. Maybe one day.
Mephisto Skywalker - a disappointing yield but very good smoke. In fairness they claimed 3oz +-, but my ego and average high yields said I can do better. I got 4.6. oz out of a plant, so while my well established techniques paid dividends to their specs, that low of a yield is not sufficient to sustain my patients. Recreational growers looking for variety could love it, just not for me.
My last harvest was a Humboldt Seed Org. (now defunct, wont matter what I think) Chem Bomb auto. Started out having one of the most solid branch structures of any plant I'd grown. I was early on predicting another pounder, but as the plant went through bloom, the vegetative growth became so heavy that leaf pruning couldnt keep up & it smothered all but the very top buds. Great idea, that plant structure had potential for further development. But bud quality rolled off and the smoke was only ordinary.
Next to harvest - a final run of Fast Buds G-14. It's filling in beautifully and is going to be a very good yielder.

This is a bit rambling, apologies. But individual experiences tend to set expectations. And as grower / consumers I believe we have the right to expect accurate strain descriptions and consistent quality that's somewhat reminiscent of the photoperiod parentals our beloved auto's get to call Mom and Dad. We can keep trying.
And I can see what I can learn about home tissue culture kits. I sometimes miss my cloning days anyway!
Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Olde School Player]

@Buz I just realized I owe you an apology for hijacking your thread. In defense, along with the apology, I was chasing a similar older thread discussing strain instability and what we can do to hold breeders accountable to higher standards. It was a couple of years old and seemed to wither and die like still another one that @Son of Hobbes tried to get off the ground several years prior to that.
I think I got my threads confused & hijacked yours. I'll buy you a ham or something for Thanksgiving.

To @Jpkindbud @N/A-Greengo @Bll and @JP1 Thanks for your inputs.
While this ended up getting legs and going in directions I didnt expect (recommendations for breeders I hadn't used), many thanks for the advice.
I've dropped an order for Royal Queen's North Thunderfuck & Royal Runtz; Twenty-20's Whiskey Zulu & Diablo; and Mephisto's 24 Carat.
Thanks for providing those breeder recommendations as it stopped me from breaking my own morals and placing more orders to breeders who have consistently disappointed me. We'll see how these Boys & Girls stand up. For now, I like what I see.

Finally, like I said, this thread got legs of its own and went in differeing directions where people kindly recommended options. In keeping with my original thoughts, however, I hope time and energy permit that we carry this forward as a way to develop and define standards that breeders can use to "certify" adherence. Like ISO standards or UL certifications. It's an interesting idea with long term voluntary implications that conscientious breeders could use to set themselves above the run of the mill pollen chuckers. Do us all a favor & check back here occasionally in case this idea doesnt die on the vine again.

 

[Olde School Player]

@terp182 a couple of years back you tried to get this idea off the ground. Several years prior, Son of Hobbes also tried a smiliar idea.
Looks like neither of those threads got legs and ran for the finish line.
I've quoted your original thread, stirred the dust, and will see if any of these efforts renew interest in others. Fingers crossed.

 

[N/A-Greengo]

Sorry I overlooked this when you posted, caught it looking back.
10 cultivars? No, I've been growing auto's for 9 years, and I'll be starting my 38th grow next week. Before that an untold number of photoperiods going back to the early '70's. If my Mama ever found out, heh heh heh.
Like most of us, my first foray into auto's was a freebie Northern Lights / Big Bud from World of Seeds. I wont try to call them all out, but I'll hit the highlights.
I've grown seeds from Greenhouse, TH Seeds (multiple grows, LOVE their BubbleGum, consistent quality & high yielding 12.4 oz.),
Humboldt (Seed Co. and Org's), average to mediocre, nothing worth mentioning.
Blimburn - their Mamba Negra was an amazing Freebie, tried three follow through purchases, none ever even came close.
G-13 Labs, sent me a full male autoflower, wish I'd kept it but they pissed me off trying to say they couldnt discuss germination - I know - f$%& them. Dutch Passion - multiple low yielding disappointments but the smoke was decent,
Dinafem Blue Cheese was awesome, 10.4 oz single plant, classic cheese smoke.
I went almost exclusively with Fast Buds for a number of years when they were marketing as American Autoflowers. They caught wind of my medical donations and gifted me seeds for a couple of years. Their Rhino Ryder was the first single plant pounder I grew, an 18.5oz slow flower monster that almost replicated with a 14.5 oz. follow up. Then Fast Buds' first release Gorilla Glue was the best autoflower smoke to-date and a 12+ oz. plant. Future grows from purchased seeds went downhill until it only yielded 5.3 oz. and was no longer recognizable to the original strain. Honestly, I was ashamed to even give away the last crop. Their StarDawg was OK, 12+ oz yield but a bear to trim excess leafiness.
A bright spot from Fast Buds - G14. It's been a shorter plant with very good yields (8+ to 11+ oz), great bud quality and heavy frost, their one stable shining star for me. Their Green Crack has also been a consistently heavy yielder, 14.5 oz. & a 16+ oz. pounder that was almost a slow flower (96 days). Was worth waiting for.
Fast Buds Tangie? Great idea, first efforts were great, 13 oz. on first, disappointing prime example of instability with only 7.5 oz. on the second grow, better yield 10.8 oz third try but inferior quality. Great examples of instability in the strain.
A Bomb Seeds' THC Bomb freebie almost reached pounder status, 14.6 oz. and great smoke. But my seed bank didn't stock so I didnt repeat. Maybe one day.
Mephisto Skywalker - a disappointing yield but very good smoke. In fairness they claimed 3oz +-, but my ego and average high yields said I can do better. I got 4.6. oz out of a plant, so while my well established techniques paid dividends to their specs, that low of a yield is not sufficient to sustain my patients. Recreational growers looking for variety could love it, just not for me.
My last harvest was a Humboldt Seed Org. (now defunct, wont matter what I think) Chem Bomb auto. Started out having one of the most solid branch structures of any plant I'd grown. I was early on predicting another pounder, but as the plant went through bloom, the vegetative growth became so heavy that leaf pruning couldnt keep up & it smothered all but the very top buds. Great idea, that plant structure had potential for further development. But bud quality rolled off and the smoke was only ordinary.
Next to harvest - a final run of Fast Buds G-14. It's filling in beautifully and is going to be a very good yielder.

This is a bit rambling, apologies. But individual experiences tend to set expectations. And as grower / consumers I believe we have the right to expect accurate strain descriptions and consistent quality that's somewhat reminiscent of the photoperiod parentals our beloved auto's get to call Mom and Dad. We can keep trying.
And I can see what I can learn about home tissue culture kits. I sometimes miss my cloning days anyway!
Thanks for stopping by.

She's a beast, and can land a 4 digit scale payload in the right hands. You should post some images of her when she's matured, I'd love to see your end results. Great talking to you, have a great night.

 

[BII]

But isn't that just accepting the problem? There are breeding methods that through multiple generations of backcrossing between the original parentals, most to almost all of the recessive genes can be eliminated, resulting in a stable inbred line. You make an excellent point, it's a bit more challenging with autoflowers because (maybe) you can't clone the autoflower side of the equation to be used in backcrossing multiple generations to stabilize the strain. And pollen collection can only carry you so far - good for the non-commercial hobbyist breeder to entertain, but not sufficient for a commercial operation.
There are some interesting works being conducted using tissue culture that may offer (a) ability to clone auto's and (b) greatly simplify backcrossing autoflower strains until the inbred line becomes stable.
I suppose the real point I'm trying to make is that it CAN be done. But IF we continue to accept inferior results, breeders will have absolutely no motivation to improve their strain profiles. We need a unified front where economics brings the pressure. And, as I've said before in this thread, just because it's hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it!

Yes, I am "just accepting the problem!" I accept, as I noted, that "the underlying nature of cannabis and particularly autoflower strain genetics" is inherently highly (relatively) variable, with high(er) genomic and phenotypic variatiability just the way it is. Plant replication (copying) of genetic sequences is simpler and prone to more mistakes (mutations), compared with human/mammalian gene replication which is much more robust, including multiple error prevention, detection and correction mechanisms.

And when I was referring to "the purposeful genetic modification [that] seems needed to better stabilize autoflower gene replication/copying and expression," I was referring to modern genetic and protein engineering, not manually applying pollen to buds, not "old school" classic "breeding methods."

Otherwise, I'm ready to move beyond growing seeds and whole plants that require manual labor and months time. I'm ready for such things as home cannabinoid cell culture production kits, such as grow modified cannabis cells in stirred culture in a glass photo-bioreactor, or culture trichomes attached to a flat surface; home synthetic biology kits to make and/or mix enzymes and precursors to produce specific cannabinoids; etc.

 

[WildBill]

The government might try to fix this, or mess it up one day. But frankly I expect we as experienced growers, putting the word out to everyone, can fix the problem without another government regulation. After all, where's the knowledge base? Breeders & experienced growers.

You mean that same government that's made it illegal for you to grow in your area?

 

[Buz]

@Buz I just realized I owe you an apology for hijacking your thread. In defense, along with the apology, I was chasing a similar older thread discussing strain instability and what we can do to hold breeders accountable to higher standards. It was a couple of years old and seemed to wither and die like still another one that @Son of Hobbes tried to get off the ground several years prior to that.
I think I got my threads confused & hijacked yours. I'll buy you a ham or something for Thanksgiving.

To @Jpkindbud @N/A-Greengo @Bll and @JP1 Thanks for your inputs.
While this ended up getting legs and going in directions I didnt expect (recommendations for breeders I hadn't used), many thanks for the advice.
I've dropped an order for Royal Queen's North Thunderfuck & Royal Runtz; Twenty-20's Whiskey Zulu & Diablo; and Mephisto's 24 Carat.
Thanks for providing those breeder recommendations as it stopped me from breaking my own morals and placing more orders to breeders who have consistently disappointed me. We'll see how these Boys & Girls stand up. For now, I like what I see.

Finally, like I said, this thread got legs of its own and went in differeing directions where people kindly recommended options. In keeping with my original thoughts, however, I hope time and energy permit that we carry this forward as a way to develop and define standards that breeders can use to "certify" adherence. Like ISO standards or UL certifications. It's an interesting idea with long term voluntary implications that conscientious breeders could use to set themselves above the run of the mill pollen chuckers. Do us all a favor & check back here occasionally in case this idea doesnt die on the vine again.

I'm really glad to know folks have been thinking about these issues. The answers are already known, inbreeding and F1 crosses of such inbred cultivars. For autos there are now tissue culture regimens that can maintain "mothers." Royal Queen Seeds is presumably addressing the problem with their F1 crosses (pricey). As production gears up with legalization, big Agra will enter with the best methods but perhaps we little breeders can still assist. Check out Segra...and Phylos....they seem to be on the cutting edge of "best practices." On a humble personal note, I don't completely hate the variation. I have a well controlled grow room and nutrient schedule and the variation in plants within and between cultivars just fills me with awe. And I do like autoflowers for the ability to have multiple stages in the same room.