Grow Mediums HELP! D39. My 5th growth in row is failing. (1st with autopots) Yellowing TOP leaves. PH, zinc,iron, something else?

[BipolarBear91]

Haha, no worries, I wasnt clear enough , my English is average.
What I wanted to know - do you flush with a light nutrient solution of 2-3x the volume of pot BEFORE you start top feeding?
I read (I think it was autopot official guide?) that those salts that have accumulated NEED to be flushed out before top watering.

 

[St. Tom]

Haha, no worries, I wasnt clear enough , my English is average.
What I wanted to know - do you flush with a light nutrient solution of 2-3x the volume of pot BEFORE you start top feeding?
I read (I think it was autopot official guide?) that those salts that have accumulated NEED to be flushed out before top watering.

To be honest sometimes I will give them a small flush with about 10 litres of lower ec that's generally plenty in my eyes as you don't want her completely flushed out do you. and then after she's become lighter higher up her food slightly again eventually building her back up to were you were before also when @Mañ'O'Green logs back in he's are feed guru he can help your with ppm ec levels ect

 

[St. Tom]

hi bro if you go to this thread and look and my problem girl and see the change in about 4 days of top feeding shes the strawberry pie https://www.autoflower.org/threads/...ow-with-dutch-passion-sssc.78551/post-2345482

 

[BipolarBear91]

hi bro if you go to this thread and look and my problem girl and see the change in about 4 days of top feeding shes the strawberry pie https://www.autoflower.org/threads/...ow-with-dutch-passion-sssc.78551/post-2345482

hahaha, the rubber boot made my day
Looks very encouraging, thank you! Will read the journal

 

[St. Tom]

hahaha, the rubber boot made my day
Looks very encouraging, thank you! Will read the journal

:smoking:I've grown in loads of stuff but I just wanted you to see you can fix whatever and stop being so hard on yourself

 

[BipolarBear91]

:smoking:I've grown in loads of stuff but I just wanted you to see you can fix whatever and stop being so hard on yourself

Thanks.
Im not usually so depressed, its been a stressful year (I decided to at least try taking care of my grandparents, since they raised me and I have no other close relatives and Gparents both had stroke in the span of 6 months - its been hard and Ive burned out) and I hoped growing would relieve the stress it causes... In the end I am even more stressful. Add to that, I have a mental block against buying, because every good toke I take reminds me of my own failures

Anyway, sorry for the offtopic rant, I guess it helps me a bit, but I do not expect any advice/reaction, I just vented

 

[St. Tom]

Thanks.
Im not usually so depressed, its been a stressful year (I decided to at least try taking care of my grandparents, since they raised me and I have no other close relatives and Gparents both had stroke in the span of 6 months - its been hard and Ive burned out) and I hoped growing would relieve the stress it causes... In the end I am even more stressful. Add to that, I have a mental block against buying, because every good toke I take reminds me of my own failures

Anyway, sorry for the offtopic rant, I guess it helps me a bit, but I do not expect any advice/reaction, I just vented

you've just taken a lot on bro especially family wise but you've got a good heart that's what makes a person also you will hit your stride soon enough with the growing and I'm rooting for you bro

 

[Cannaficionado]

Thanks.
Im not usually so depressed, its been a stressful year (I decided to at least try taking care of my grandparents, since they raised me and I have no other close relatives and Gparents both had stroke in the span of 6 months - its been hard and Ive burned out) and I hoped growing would relieve the stress it causes... In the end I am even more stressful. Add to that, I have a mental block against buying, because every good toke I take reminds me of my own failures

Anyway, sorry for the offtopic rant, I guess it helps me a bit, but I do not expect any advice/reaction, I just vented

Just like st tom said, you'll get there, the community like to see success. Dont let your grow stress you out. Also there is nothing wrong with taking time for yourself. We all want that perfect grow, but its a process. There's always some kind of unexpected wrench thrown in the mix. But the best part is sometimes mistakes can stress a plant to a better outcome . Not always but it happened for me.

A lot of people actually care about people on here regardless of meeting or talking to them. We all enjoy at least 1 similar hobby. Take a deep breath and remember it will get better.

 

[Mañ'O'Green]

@Mañ'O'Green - here is my attempt to provide the best info I can. I will be using CAPS LOCK/bold for the information that seems most relevant to me By the way thanks for asking to take pictures in daylight, the symtoms dont look as bad as in the tent.

This is my water report – I translated it from my native language. It doesn’t include calcium and magnesium…. But it has AMONIUM and “chlorides”. Do you think my water has chloramine or chlorine?


Aluminium: 0.02mg/l
Amonium: 0.03 mg/L
Boron:0.4mg/L
Iron: 0.08mgL
Fluorides: 0.17mg/L
Chlorides (plural?): 75mg/L
Manganese - 0.02mlL
Natrium: 34mg/L
Nitrate(s):1.9mg/L
Nitrit (s) 0.003mg/L
Oxidizing ability(?) KMn04 – 2.3mg/L
PH: 7.3
Sulfates: 41mg/L
Copper: 0.05mg/L



I will use Hannah scale for Ec measurements. And answer to your question is "yes -tap water is 300 ppm aka 0.6EC.

Problem: Yellowing/chlorosis(?) from TOP leaves starting day 35. Up to day 35 everything was almost perfect. (SMALL nute burn starting day 24, but so small it didnt get worse))
-Medium/grow method: 100%CANNA (pre buffered) coco coir in 15 litre plastic pot. Watering is done by gravity aka "Autopot" system - it bottom feeds and refills the tray, when plants drinks everything..
-Feed and supplements used: Sorry, wont be able to provide NPK, but I used Canna Coco light feeding chart and went even lower than their recommendations. However I reduced the feed evenly for all nutes, as to avoid relatively disproportionate amounts.

Autopot system is meant to start bottom watering when plant is big enough, roughly 15-25 days. ALL MY PPMs are including the RO + tap+ calmag base.700 ppm means a 200ppm base of RO/tap/calmag and 500 ppm of nutes.

Day 0 - day23 = handwatering to 20-30% runoff. Ph about 6, ppm 500-600. Runoff EC good.
Day 23 - day30: Autopot turned on. 12 litres of 650 ppm water, 5.65 PH. SLIGHT NUTE BURN. I mean barely visible burned tips on leaves
Day 30 - day37: 15 litres, 700 ppm, 5.65PH. Didnt increase PPM due to last weeks nute burn. Nut the burn was so small I didnt want to lower it.
day 37 - today: I lowered the PPM to 600 AND the PH to 5.55. My guess was iron,zinc def and I read that lowering ph can help iron/zinc absorption. Has it gotten better? No, but I also cannot tell how much worse it has gotten, not too much.

-Water source: 80% RO/20% tap = 50ppm or 0.1 ec. I add Canna calmag to reach 0.4ec and then I add Canna nutes (A+B, Cannzym, Rhizotonic). Water PH is reservoir 5.6-5.9 (it drifts to 5.9 in 3-4days) Water PH in tray (bottom feed) = 5.7-6.1. PH OF WATER HAS NEVER BEN ABOVE 6.1
-Strain and age: Mephisto S.O.D.K - day 40
-Climate: 24/0 light, so climate is consistent. Temps 25-26 celsium (maybe a bit LOW for leds) and humidity 60-70%. Ambient temps around 23 celsium and ~60-65% humidity. Due to , in my opinion, insufficient leaf temps with led lights, the VPD may not be ideal, but it is nowhere close "bad"
- Light used: Kingbrite 240wwith cree red and Mars ts1000. Distance varies,I go more by DLI. DLI is about 37 now. That is for my lights 24-26k lux for 24/0
-Additional info: Sorry, cannot measure PH in root zone. Everything was PERFECT until day 35. On day 35 I noticed 4 leaves, that look like the ones in pictures, but in a bit better shape. 5 days later - and a large part of the top canopy has become yellowish. Whether the progression is fast or slow, I have no reference point.


What have I done to remedy the situation?
1) Posted on forums
2) Reduced the PH to 5.55, because I suspected a micronutrient deficiency and iron/zinc get absorbbed better at lower ph. I dont think it helped.
3) Added a little bit more tap water to my reservoir. From day 37 to today the PPM of tap water in res is about 100.
a)Why did I add tapwater? I dont believe it is a PH lockout,I measured the PH regularly.... I suspected that 50 ppm of tapwater isnt enough MICRONUTRIENTS for a plant. And I think CANNA COCO line has very little to no micronutrients in their feeds.


P.S. Photos 6 and 7 used flash.


Thanks for at least rading this I suspect that a flush will be recommended anyways.

A general question. If you encounter a deficiency of my magnitude in COCO, do you just flush or try to fix it? From what I have read, it seems sometimes its easier to just flush, no?

BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO COMMENTED ON MY ISSUE!!
I know its very hard to diagnose online ,I see this as a learning experience

Great job reporting back with useful information.

First things first you have chloramines that must be treated in any form of hydroponics, it is not a big issue in soil but I would treat for it under any circumstances. it is simple to treat.

Chloramines Removal
You are looking for ascorbic acid - vitamin C. The store brand is usually the cheapest without other stuff added in. 50mg per gallon will treat water with 3.8 PPM of chloramines. This is the common strength used to sanitize water.

Your PH is too low get it up to 5.8 to 6.2

You see on this chart that magnesium and calcium are not optimal at 5.5. sometimes it is ok to run that low but only when too much Mg or Ca is suspected and only for a short time.

The plants are showing luxury Nitrogen levels ( dark green coloration) I would back off on the N.

The plant is showing a Mg. deficiency and my guess would be too much Ca. Your tap water at 300PPM is probably high in CaCO3
and even at 20% of your water can be still to high especially after adding Cal-mag back in. Is the PPM of the water after mixing 20% tap and 80% RO 200PPM? I based the chart below on that number.

I would stop the cal-mag in the 20/80 mix and add 1g of Ag Epsom salt per gallon of water. Be sure to mix this in last. UNTIL the yellowing stops in the new growth then drop back to 150PPM in the 20/80 mix addition of Cal-mag.

Bottom feeding coco has issues IMPO and I do not recommend it. What happens is the water wicking up in the pot will only carry the heavier Ca ions so far up before it begins to precipitate out in the coco. This will cause a nutrient line in the pot that can become toxic to the plant. Problems can be avoided by a good weekly top fertigation with some 50% strength balanced nutrients to 50% run-off. Or you just avoid the whole problem by top fertigating to 15%-20% run-off every day you fertigate. A weekly flush in flower is a good practice in coco. This is IMPO how coco should be used.

Why would you think Canna Coco does not have micro-nutrients?

This is a chart Off of the Canna site. It is for Photoperiod plants but jive a goo idea for balance and other products you should be using. I would use 450PPM as a starting point and 650PPM as a maximum for autos.

I think this and the wisdom of the auto pot growers will help you get back on track.

Most of allRelax and enjoy. We all have problems from time to time. These plants are very durable.

 

[BipolarBear91]

Great job reporting back with useful information.

First things first you have chloramines that must be treated in any form of hydroponics, it is not a big issue in soil but I would treat for it under any circumstances. it is simple to treat.

Chloramines Removal
You are looking for ascorbic acid - vitamin C. The store brand is usually the cheapest without other stuff added in. 50mg per gallon will treat water with 3.8 PPM of chloramines. This is the common strength used to sanitize water.

Your PH is too low get it up to 5.8 to 6.2
View attachment 1567371


You see on this chart that magnesium and calcium are not optimal at 5.5. sometimes it is ok to run that low but only when too much Mg or Ca is suspected and only for a short time.

The plants are showing luxury Nitrogen levels ( dark green coloration) I would back off on the N.

The plant is showing a Mg. deficiency and my guess would be too much Ca. Your tap water at 300PPM is probably high in CaCO3
and even at 20% of your water can be still to high especially after adding Cal-mag back in. Is the PPM of the water after mixing 20% tap and 80% RO 200PPM? I based the chart below on that number.

I would stop the cal-mag in the 20/80 mix and add 1g of Ag Epsom salt per gallon of water. Be sure to mix this in last. UNTIL the yellowing stops in the new growth then drop back to 150PPM in the 20/80 mix addition of Cal-mag.

View attachment 1567379

Bottom feeding coco has issues IMPO and I do not recommend it. What happens is the water wicking up in the pot will only carry the heavier Ca ions so far up before it begins to precipitate out in the coco. This will cause a nutrient line in the pot that can become toxic to the plant. Problems can be avoided by a good weekly top fertigation with some 50% strength balanced nutrients to 50% run-off. Or you just avoid the whole problem by top fertigating to 15%-20% run-off every day you fertigate. A weekly flush in flower is a good practice in coco. This is IMPO how coco should be used.

Why would you think Canna Coco does not have micro-nutrients?
View attachment 1567389

This is a chart Off of the Canna site. It is for Photoperiod plants but jive a goo idea for balance and other products you should be using. I would use 450PPM as a starting point and 650PPM as a maximum for autos.
View attachment 1567390

I think this and the wisdom of the auto pot growers will help you get back on track.

Most of allRelax and enjoy. We all have problems from time to time. These plants are very durable.

Thank you for the amazingly detailed help! I truly appreciate it.

Tonight I will let them dry out a bit, shut off the reservoir valve.

Before I answer the questions you asked (and ask 1 or 2 myself hehe, whenever you get the time), I understand that I do not have a lockout, thus no flush I needed (although, a comment on this on point 3). That means tomorrow I make a new res with your suggested additions (acid and magnesium, which I have) and nute balance change (a bit less nitrogen,les cal mag)

1) Yes, my base is 80% RO ( 5 ppm, no remineralization ) + 20% tap = 50 ppm aka 0.1ec + 150 lppm calmag = 200 ppm
2) Regarding your comment about bottom feeding not being ideal. I have almost no knowledge about this topic , I am just saying what I have read. It seems many people are having success with autopots. Due to the lack of negative reviews (thus explaining survivorship bias) , one can conclude, that the scientific reason you mentioned is not reducing yields/quality by large enough margin. Again, I know nothing ☹

3) I cannot top feed tomorrow without flush, because salts have accumulated in topsoil (an aspect of autopots). If you weren’t aware of this product specific detail, should I flush before top feeding?

I will consider top feeding in nearest future . I was quick on autopots, since they were available locally and are QUIET. (my main concern, tent is 6 feet from my bed).

I assume there are automated top feeding systems that I can program that wouldn’t interfere with my sleep. I have no issue with pumps running a few minutes per day.


I cant thank you enough, again! I have zero rep, so thanks is all you are gonna get But honestly, I truly appreciate the help Ive gotten from cannabis community. All of my questions have been answered, and I have even managed to answer truly beginner questions myself

Ill post, when I finally get something good!