Lighting Grow Northern Live Tech Talk

l have a question regarding spectrum. When you(GN) decide on the Spectrum for a light, can you explain why UV-B is not included in the HS1?

Some LED manufactures/sellers include UV-B, claiming of course it is important and beneficial, whereas others don't seem to think it is worth bothering.

Reason for asking is a discussion about UV-B in another thread, and it is hard to find any solid scientific evidence about any possible UV-B effect, whether detrimental, beneficial or none at all.

Suppose the diffuser might also disagree with UV-B....
 
l have a question regarding spectrum. When you(GN) decide on the Spectrum for a light, can you explain why UV-B is not included in the HS1?

Some LED manufactures/sellers include UV-B, claiming of course it is important and beneficial, whereas others don't seem to think it is worth bothering.

Reason for asking is a discussion about UV-B in another thread, and it is hard to find any solid scientific evidence about any possible UV-B effect, whether detrimental, beneficial or none at all.

Suppose the diffuser might also disagree with UV-B....

I'd run a mile from getting a light with a spectrum that'll blind me and has bugger all conclusive proof that it does anything other than make two types of sativa grow more pistils to protect themselves from the UVB burn.
 
l have a question regarding spectrum. When you(GN) decide on the Spectrum for a light, can you explain why UV-B is not included in the HS1?

Some LED manufactures/sellers include UV-B, claiming of course it is important and beneficial, whereas others don't seem to think it is worth bothering.

Reason for asking is a discussion about UV-B in another thread, and it is hard to find any solid scientific evidence about any possible UV-B effect, whether detrimental, beneficial or none at all.

Suppose the diffuser might also disagree with UV-B....

First of all lets look at the best high powered UV LED components available




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LHUV-0380-0300685Luxeon ZUV380-385nm

[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Part [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Typical Radiometric output at 1000ma (mW) [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Lumiled product family [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Color [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Wavelength/ CCT [/TD]


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LZ1-00UV001120LZ1UV365nm peak

[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Part [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Typical Radiometric output at 1000ma (mW) [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Led Enigin product family [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Color [/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #674ea7"] Wavelength/ CCT [/TD]



As you can see the shortest wavelengths currently available are are 365-385nm, these wavelengths are in the UVA spectrum and are typically used in UV curing applications. I have read that when testing some semiconducting aluminum alloys they have produced narrower UV wavelengths but only at very low efficiency. I haven’t heard of a semiconductor producing UVB let alone being commercially available yet.

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When considering light for a bioproduction application you only take the visible colour of that light into consideration when looking at what is mainly reflected by the culture or organism. Mainly we look at light as just energy per photon in consideration of absorption/quantum yield, delivery through volume and viscosity (see previous GN post) and processes. The current research of short high energy wavelengths like UVB and bio applications comes under the category of processes for its regulatory signals. Plants grown outside under sunlight are naturally exposed to damaging UVB and therefore plants have evolved to repair and further defend against UVB by the deposition of UV absorbing compound on the outer epidermal tissue of the organism. The question is with cannabis plants is whether this deposition improves the quality of the end produce when considering smell, taste and strength. If this was found to occur with the addition of UVB it may not be the caused by the deposition of UVB absorbing compounds but by photodissociation in the trichome or some other light dependent reaction. Either Way I have not read or seen any qualitative study to prove either process improves quality.

In other applications when looking at Algae or plants cells in a photobioreactor the're similar demands to research the damaging effects and regulatory signals caused by UVB. Originally research that showed that certain processes occur only with UVB radiation however we found that using 460nm or high kelvin white LED’s at a narrow beam angle can produce the same effect at a much higher efficiency than current UV light sources. We have also seen that these effects can be produced by adding specific chemicals to the feed or suspension solution.

The current HS1 spectrum, power density and optical system has produced the best quality organic produce with autoflowers in terms of smell, taste and health compared to anything we have ever tested before with LED lighting. We were really happy with the difference in trichome production and plant health we found between testing the HS1 and Modular series. From our testing we can suggest when considering LED lighting and autoflowers that the following will reap the best results in terms of quality.

  • reduced hotspots/homogeneous coverage
  • balanced production spectrum using the correct amount of deep red and high kelvin white light
  • allowing a plant to grow at a more natural rate in terms of light intensity vs time in balance to its roots systems and supply of additional nutrients (e.g plants in DWC will replenish at a faster rate to plants in soil and can therefore utilize more light without deficiencies)
  • Keeping the ambient growroom temperature and drying temperature under 28C.
  • Keeping the grow room humidity below 40%
 
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Thank you for the excellent reply.

It raises a few questions

- You mention regarding the UVB effect "these effects can be produced by adding specific chemicals to the feed or suspension solution", what chemicals is involved and are they already included in various feeds and supplements, like the rather extensive Advanced Nutrients, Dutch Pro or Canna ranges?

- "
Keeping the grow room humidity below 40%", is this from start to finish, or just during the flowering phase?

- "
homogeneous coverage" and "allowing a plant grow at a more natural rate in terms of light intensity", what is the maximum amount of HS1 light, i.e. number of lights, that you would recommend for 1 m2 in soil and hydro?

- What distance to the canopy do you recommend for vegetative and flowering phase for each different diffusor?

I have just ordered a grow tent sized 150x270x240 cm (WxLxH), and have pretty much decided on covering this area of 4 m2 with HS1 lights. How many lights do you recommend I get to cover this rectangle shaped area with HS1 without "overdoing" the amount of light, and what diffuser(s) would be optimal?

Speaking of the diffusers, is there any news regarding when they will be available, I'm thinking the 50x80 diffuser may be the right one for my tent?
This is based on below from the Crazy LED website.

Again, thanks for taking the time to reply in details to the questions raised here.

from
http://www.crazy-leds.com/en/shop/product/holographic-series-1-led-grow-light/

We stock a range of holographic diffusers with different light shaping effects that will allow you to use your grow room to maximum efficiency no matter what shape you have or how you wish to use that space. By interchanging different diffusion optics you can adjust the angle of light on the ‘X’ axis from 20° to 90°, and the same on the ‘Y’ axis. This gives a range of diffusion optics from 90°x20° to 20° x 90° and everything in-between. By increasing or reducing the height of the grow light above the plants you can alter the size and intensity (but not shape) of the light field

Examples

The 60°x60° diffusion optic is perfect if you wish to focus the LED light into a narrow intense light beam at a low height to finish blooming a mature plant.

A 40°x40° optic is ideal for commercial greenhouse growers who want to hang the light from a high ceiling but still retain high light intensity at plant canopy level.

An 80°x50° provides great coverage for rectangular shape grow rooms. Using two units each equipped with the 80°x50° optic will create superb canopy coverage flowering in a 1.2x1.2m indoor grow tent. Each light will illuminate half of the grow area, and if angled inwards slightly it will maximize light penetration.
 
- You mention regarding the UVB effect "these effects can be produced by adding specific chemicals to the feed or suspension solution", what chemicals is involved and are they already included in various feeds and supplements, like the rather extensive Advanced Nutrients, Dutch Pro or Canna ranges?

I was talking about developments we have made specifically for Algae however some growers use additives like Bud factor X which are intended to produce similar plant responses to UVB by systemic acquired resistance which involves the introduction of a pathogen which triggers certain functions of a plant's immune system.

- "Keeping the grow room humidity below 40%", is this from start to finish, or just during the flowering phase?

If you have a good feeding/watering regime or are growing in hydroponics with a recirculating reservoir or systematic flood and drain I would recommend maintaining a low humidity throughout the grow to increase the rate of transpiration. The greater the rate of transpiration the faster a plant will replenish the essentials for photosynthesis and growth. During germination and for the first few days of growth a higher humidity can be useful as a slower transpiration rate can prevent wilting before the plant has an established root system.

- "homogeneous coverage" and "allowing a plant grow at a more natural rate in terms of light intensity", what is the maximum amount of HS1 light, i.e. number of lights, that you would recommend for 1 m2 in soil and hydro?
It’s a very hard question to give a maximum with just saying soil or hydro because there are so many variables especially with autoflowers. By giving us more variables from the questions below we can assess the potential 3d volume, the vigour of growth and the potential size surface area of the root system then I can give you a very accurate answer of how many lights you can use without running into photoinhibition and heavy deficiencies whilst maintaining optimum plant growth and health.

Soil
Can you give me the number of plants in soil, the variety of autoflower or photoperiod (if so how long will you veg for), will they be using an advanced root structuring methods like airports and will the plants be trained (if so how) or allowed to grow freely.

Hydro
Can you tell me the hydroponic system you would be using and again the number of plants, the variety of autoflower or photoperiod (if so how long will you veg for), and will the plants be trained or allowed to grow freely.

Without that information a general answer without considering maximums would be between 2-4 lights in both scenarios, with 2 lights providing the most efficient natural growth rate and easy to maintains feeding schedule and 4 lights providing the best yield per square meter available but would be more demanding to keep on top of in terms of feeding, light distance from canopy and temperature.

I have just ordered a grow tent sized 150x270x240 cm (WxLxH), and have pretty much decided on covering this area of 4 m2 with HS1 lights. How many lights do you recommend I get to cover this rectangle shaped area with HS1 without "overdoing" the amount of light, and what diffuser(s) would be optimal?

Following on from the previous question we would recommend 8 units positioned in 2 columns with 4 rows if you were going to fill out the tent with plants. We would recommend the 80° x 80° diffuser for 8 lights in this format however the 90° x 60° would be useful if you intended to add more lighting at a later point e.g 2 columns with 5 rows using 10 lights or 2 columns with 6 rows etc.

- What distance to the canopy do you recommend for vegetative and flowering phase for each different diffusor?

We are producing detailed graphical instructions for this at the moment but in general and for a quick reply the first 3 diffusers should be used between 50-25cm from top canopy adjusting for optimal intensity and spread. In flowering you generally want the lights to be 30cm above plants with level canopies and for untrained plants you want the lights angled into the canopy at a distance that gives you the best surface area coverage.

Speaking of the diffusers, is there any news regarding when they will be available, I'm thinking the 50x80 diffuser may be the right one for my tent?

GN now have the first 2 new diffusers instock but we have only made them available to select on new units so far as we are waiting for packaging and more housings to release them as accessories also. There is a checkbox option on the HS1 store page or they can be selected on request.
 
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Thanks for your usual stellar reply, I have commented/questioned in red below

I was talking about developments we have made specifically for Algae however some growers use additives like Bud factor X which are intended to produce similar plant responses to UVB by systemic acquired resistance which involves the introduction of a pathogen which triggers certain functions of a plant's immune system.

OK, so Bud factor X........is botanically handy to have at hand. Noted

If you have a good feeding/watering regime or are growing in hydroponics with a recirculating reservoir or systematic flood and drain I would recommend maintaining a low humidity throughout the grow to increase the rate of transpiration. The greater the rate of transpiration the faster a plant will replenish the essentials for photosynthesis and growth. During germination and for the first few days of growth a higher humidity can be useful as a slower transpiration rate can prevent wilting before the plant has an established root system.

Thanks, that was already penciled

It’s a very hard question to give a maximum with just saying soil or hydro because there are so many variables especially with autoflowers. By giving us more variables from the questions below we can assess the potential 3d volume, the vigour of growth and the potential size surface area of the root system then I can give you a very accurate answer of how many lights you can use without running into photoinhibition and heavy deficiencies whilst maintaining optimum plant growth and health.

Soil
Can you give me the number of plants in soil, the variety of autoflower or photoperiod (if so how long will you veg for), will they be using an advanced root structuring methods like airports and will the plants be trained (if so how) or allowed to grow freely.

Initial plan is 8 plants in soil growing freely, a bit of LST/tucking if and as deemed necessary, 2 x 22.5 l, 4 x 30 l and 2 x 50 L potato tower airpots, all with airdome (air injection from the bottom). Initially all autoflower with Dutch comPassion genetics, Think Different, Ultimate and I suspect an Euphoria may accidentally join the party....Mephisto too in due course.....and having dabbled with tomatoes for years, corners may occupy a few choice varieties(off topic, I know!) .......I will have a separate vegging area(sorry, but this will be MarsHydro lights), so plan to bring plants starting to flower under the HS1's every 6-7 weeks or so. Feed will be AN pH prefect, and TaNg's feed schedule, plus supplements.

Hydro
Can you tell me the hydroponic system you would be using and again the number of plants, the variety of autoflower or photoperiod (if so how long will you veg for), and will the plants be trained or allowed to grow freely.

No hydro for now, gotta get my weedy legs firmly planted in the ground before I going swimming......lol

Without that information a general answer without considering maximums would be between 2-4 lights in both scenarios, with 2 lights providing the most efficient natural growth rate and easy to maintains feeding schedule and 4 lights providing the best yield per square meter available but would be more demanding to keep on top of in terms of feeding, light distance from canopy and temperature.

Fair enough,.......however 16 lights for maximum performance in a 4 square meter area.....wow!!! any chance of a discount code?


Following on from the previous question we would recommend 8 units positioned in 2 columns with 4 rows if you were going to fill out the tent with plants. We would recommend the 80° x 80° diffuser for 8 lights in this format however the 90° x 60° would be useful if you intended to add more lighting at a later point e.g 2 columns with 5 rows using 10 lights or 2 columns with 6 rows etc.

Ok, I already figured on 8 for starters. I looked at your website, and see the 90x60 is elliptical, but advise taken on-board about the 80x80. I am in Holland, perhaps you can give Dutch comPassion/Crazy LED a nudge, their website at the time of writing does not offer anything like their choice in strains, it's 80x80 take it or leave it.......lol......guess they'll catch up, hopefully sooner than later.

We are producing detailed graphical instructions for this at the moment but in general and for a quick reply the first 3 diffusers should be used between 50-25cm from top canopy adjusting for optimal intensity and spread. In flowering you generally want the lights to be 30cm above plants with level canopies and for untrained plants you want the lights angled into the canopy at a distance that gives you the best surface area coverage.

Thanks, well understood. Look forward to the graphical explanations and recommendations.

GN now have the first 2 new diffusers instock but we have only made them available to select on new units so far as we are waiting for packaging and more housings to release them as accessories also. There is a checkbox option on the HS1 store page or they can be selected on request.

Thanks, ref above


Finally, can you spill a few beans.........is there anything in the pipeline, say a 150 W or 300 W HS2.......I know the botanically inclined community is having alternating nightmares and SWEET DREAMS about such a possibility !!!!!

Again, many thanks for your reply, it is bliss to hear from a competent LED sorcerer good news.gif...........most of the other pretenders busy repackaging/re-labeling Chinese lights score

real high......... right here bull shit meter.gif

Cheers
 
Ok, I already figured on 8 for starters. I looked at your website, and see the 90x60 is elliptical, but advise taken on-board about the 80x80. I am in Holland, perhaps you can give DutchcomPassion/Crazy LED a nudge, their website at the time of writing does not offer anything like their choice in strains, it's 80x80 take it or leave it.......lol......guess they'll catch up, hopefully sooner than later.

Cheers

Unfortunately due to changes in Dutch law in March 2015 residents of the Netherlands can not buy more that 2 lights from Crazy LED, this is the same law that restricts residents of the Netherlands to 199 seeds from Dutch passion- We think this will only be a temporary condition until the law becomes more clear following court rulings on the amount of equipment that can be sold to an individual. This will likely be measured in power consumption for lighting so having the most efficient lighting available will likely become the trend in Dutch hydroponic stores. If you were looking to purchase 8 lights in the next few months at least 6 of them would need to be direct from GN or from another UK retailer.

With the units being assembled by GN in the UK we are able to offer the choice of diffuser a little quicker but its only been available for a few days now. Crazy LED will have the optional diffuser on purchase at the same time as the new diffusers are ready to be released as accessories because they will require assembled spare diffusers to exchange with the 80° x 80° they have in stock upon order. This should not be long at all from now 10-15 working days max.

Fair enough,.......however 16 lights for maximum performance in a 4 square meter area.....wow!!! any chance of a discount code?

This would need to be a private discussion in accordance with AFN rules you can email me for a quote at daniel@grownorthen.co.uk.

nitial plan is 8 plants in soil growing freely, a bit of LST/tucking if and as deemed necessary, 2 x 22.5 l, 4 x 30 l and 2 x 50 L potato tower airpots, all with airdome (air injection from the bottom). Initially all autoflower with Dutch comPassion genetics, Think Different, Ultimate and I suspect an Euphoria may accidentally join the party....Mephisto too in due course.....and having dabbled with tomatoes for years, corners may occupy a few choice varieties(off topic, I know!) .......I will have a separate vegging area(sorry, but this will be MarsHydro lights), so plan to bring plants starting to flower under the HS1's every 6-7 weeks or so. Feed will be AN pH prefect, and TaNg's feed schedule, plus supplements.

That sounds like a fantastic line up, I would recommend a maximum of 3 lights per square meter/2 plants. Your requirements unlike a sog or scrog (where a 2d canopy requires coverage corner to corner) are what the HS1 is designed for versatility and inter-lighting for flowering plants. With 8 lights you can use 2 lights per 2 plants angled in to the canopy from either side (interlighting) during flowering. Any extra lighting for example 3 lights per 2 plants/ square meter can be used as top lighting between 2 plants or just to focus more light on to one of your more vigorous growing plants.

Finally, can you spill a few beans.........is there anything in the pipeline, say a 150 W or 300 W HS2.......I know the botanically inclined community is having alternating nightmares and SWEET DREAMS about such a possibility !!!!!
There maybe other Holographic series unit in the pipeline but we don't want to create any hype or confirm anything prematurely at this time. If there is another unit coming it will just turn up when it's ready to go with a much shorter grace period than the HS1 had! We have a meeting in Amsterdam next week with Dutch passion/Crazy LED where we will discuss time lines for the US version so we should be able to confirm a date for that very soon.
 
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Regarding the diffusers....wouldn't two 80x50s in a 1.2x1.2m space be the same as 2 80x80s? My head hurts trying to work out the benefits of 2 80x50s over 2 80x80s?
 
Unfortunately due to changes in Dutch law in March 2015 residents of the Netherlands can not buy more that 2 lights from Crazy LED, this is the same law that restricts residents of the Netherlands to 199 seeds from Dutch passion- We think this will only be a temporary condition until the law becomes more clear following court rulings on the amount of equipment that can be sold to an individual. This will likely be measured in power consumption for lighting so having the most efficient lighting available will likely become the trend in Dutch hydroponic stores. If you were looking to purchase 8 lights in the next few months at least 6 of them would need to be direct from GN or from another UK retailer.

With the units being assembled by GN in the UK we are able to offer the choice of diffuser a little quicker but its only been available for a few days now. Crazy LED will have the optional diffuser on purchase at the same time as the new diffusers are ready to be released as accessories because they will require assembled spare diffusers to exchange with the 80° x 80° they have in stock upon order. This should not be long at all from now 10-15 working days max.



This would need to be a private discussion in accordance with AFN rules you can email me for a quote at daniel@grownorthen.co.uk.



That sounds like a fantastic line up, I would recommend a maximum of 3 lights per square meter/2 plants. Your requirements unlike a sog or scrog (where a 2d canopy requires coverage corner to corner) are what the HS1 is designed for versatility and inter-lighting for flowering plants. With 8 lights you can use 2 lights per 2 plants angled in to the canopy from either side (interlighting) during flowering. Any extra lighting for example 3 lights per 2 plants/ square meter can be used as top lighting between 2 plants or just to focus more light on to one of your more vigorous growing plants.


There maybe other Holographic series unit in the pipeline but we don't want to create any hype or confirm anything prematurely at this time. If there is another unit coming it will just turn up when it's ready to go with a much shorter grace period than the HS1 had! We have a meeting in Amsterdam next week with Dutch passion/Crazy LED where we will discuss time lines for the US version so we should be able to confirm a date for that very soon.

I'll be in touch Daniel. Thanks for the excellent reply

I have failed to find anything on the the new Dutch law as of March 2015, restricting anyone from buying more than 2 LED lights..........sounds Crazy, but this is Holland where the Police work to protect Criminals from Justice(except if it is an easy got-you-going 53 KM in a 50 KM zone), AND prisons are closing in record tempo so as not to burden tax payers with protecting themselves. In order to ease the closures, the Dutch Government is now providing vacant cells to the Norwegian ran-a-foul-of-any-law convicts for a fee and soliciting other empty cells to other countries......send us your criminals to host............so it is entirely possible AND PLAUSIBLE.........

Anyways, good to hear that someone from GN get to go to Amsterdam for a pow wow about the Americano edition, judging from the comments made by Americanos aplenty, this is way over-due..........guess an LED-light is a bit like breeding, it takes the time it takes.........

I'll be in touch about the HS1's....still hurts a bit to learn I'll have to pay shipping from the UK because I can't buy here in Holland(more than 2)......weird.......but not surprising.....anything is possible here! even the Dutch say their country is a Banana Republic.........go figure!
 
Regarding the diffusers....wouldn't two 80x50s in a 1.2x1.2m space be the same as 2 80x80s? My head hurts trying to work out the benefits of 2 80x50s over 2 80x80s?

The benefit lies in producing the best uniformity and coverage with minimal overlapping or over illumination on the sides of the area. Therefore with the HS1 when using multiple lights you are trying to target one specific area with one light. With that considered selecting the best diffuser in most cases is just about what shapes fit the best inside other shapes with consideration to the shape of the area, number of lights and if the lights will be used for top lighting or interlighting.

Looking at a 1.2mx1.2m tent for top lighting
The tent has a square area.
The 80° x 80° diffusers produces a square/circular footprint.
The 90° x 60° diffuser produces a rectangular/elliptical footprint.

2 lights cannot occupy the center of the grow room at the same time, so with the 80° x 80° diffuser you will always have a lot of overlapping and primary intensity of the light hitting wall of the grow tent and the corners not receiving enough light.

If you split the 1.2m x 1.2m in half you are left with 2x rectangular 1.2m x 0.6m areas. Using the 90° x 60° diffuser to cover these 2 rectangular areas separately with the 90° axis running in parallel to the 1.2m length on the rectangle and the 60° axis running in parallel to the 60cm side of the rectangle you will cover the 1.2m x 1.2m with less overlapping and reaching further to the edges than the 80° x 80° diffuser.
 
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