Lighting Additional deep & far red LEDs & when to use them?

[KonopCh]

There is no certain rule!

You can use up to 90% red wavelength and 10% blue or 6500K to add some blue and green!
Warmwhite already has 45-50% red-, deep- and far-red so maybe between 10 and 40%.

With far red one needs ~2000-4000μMol (not per s/m², just μMol) to put the girls into sleep mode. That way you can increase flowering time to 14/10 and get more yield compared to 12/12 because of increased DLI. Or just leave it on 12/12 and get few days faster harvest. With longer flowering sativas you can get 5-9 days faster turnaround, with shorter indica strains a few days, up to 5 maybe.

White light already contains red and deepred wavelength so you should profit from Emerson effect even without additional red/deepred diodes. For this reason many user have switched to CRI90+ because it has much more red and deep-red and twice as much far-red compared to CRI80. Even though CRI80 is more electrically efficient the better spectrum compensates for this and depending on the strain you are using you can get even better yields in less time if you use CRI90.
But remember, the Emerson effect gets weaker with increased brightness. With 1500μMol/s/m² there is no improvement anymore. With only 400-500μMol/s/m² you'll see huge improvements.
This is how mother nature has created a way how plants get along well with less light.
But when you add more red/deepred wavelength you make your whole light more efficient and depending on the brightness level it also increase the emerson effect.

I have my DIY Samsung Q strips 3000K and system efficiency at 2.65 umol/s. When I add 660nm reds which are 4.2 umol/s I can get nice efficiency bump in overall light output. This way my light isn't "old tech yet", and for 150€ cost, I bump that umol/s to 2.95 at 660W. Pretty nice output, right guys? I don't even know if some company made that good light yet. :smoking:

 

[bakEQuatorial]

My 2 cents. For autos, I feel that it can be used right away with your main lights. I'd add no more than 10+% of 660/730 to the white lights especially if those reds are super efficient (Expensive).

The idea for these red supplement is to
1. Increase photosynthesis rate
2. Shorten up time needed for sleep hence faster, bigger harvest.

In the case of autos, I believe only 1 applies. 2 is more relevant to photos.

I've tried turning them on during flower and had a plant started late so that late plant was under the reds from the get go. I prefer starting them reds right away.

 

[Benjidubwise]

There is no certain rule!

You can use up to 90% red wavelength and 10% blue or 6500K to add some blue and green!
Warmwhite already has 45-50% red-, deep- and far-red so maybe between 10 and 40%.

With far red one needs ~2000-4000μMol (not per s/m², just μMol) to put the girls into sleep mode. That way you can increase flowering time to 14/10 and get more yield compared to 12/12 because of increased DLI. Or just leave it on 12/12 and get few days faster harvest. With longer flowering sativas you can get 5-9 days faster turnaround, with shorter indica strains a few days, up to 5 maybe.

White light already contains red and deepred wavelength so you should profit from Emerson effect even without additional red/deepred diodes. For this reason many user have switched to CRI90+ because it has much more red and deep-red and twice as much far-red compared to CRI80. Even though CRI80 is more electrically efficient the better spectrum compensates for this and depending on the strain you are using you can get even better yields in less time if you use CRI90.
But remember, the Emerson effect gets weaker with increased brightness. With 1500μMol/s/m² there is no improvement anymore. With only 400-500μMol/s/m² you'll see huge improvements.
This is how mother nature has created a way how plants get along well with less light.
But when you add more red/deepred wavelength you make your whole light more efficient and depending on the brightness level it also increase the emerson effect.

I have my DIY Samsung Q strips 3000K and system efficiency at 2.65 umol/s. When I add 660nm reds which are 4.2 umol/s I can get nice efficiency bump in overall light output. This way my light isn't "old tech yet", and for 150€ cost, I bump that umol/s to 2.95 at 660W. Pretty nice output, right guys? I don't even know if some company made that good light yet. :smoking:

Thanks for the knowledge bomb @KonopCh! Unfortunately my grasp on the subject matter is so limited that reading paragraphs like that make my brain sweat what I do get is that there isn't a strait, "do 'this' to get bigger buds faster" approach with far reds. It seems much more subtle than that.

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[Benjidubwise]

My 2 cents. For autos, I feel that it can be used right away with your main lights. I'd add no more than 10+% of 660/730 to the white lights especially if those reds are super efficient (Expensive).

The idea for these red supplement is to
1. Increase photosynthesis rate
2. Shorten up time needed for sleep hence faster, bigger harvest.

In the case of autos, I believe only 1 applies. 2 is more relevant to photos.

I've tried turning them on during flower and had a plant started late so that late plant was under the reds from the get go. I prefer starting them reds right away.

Thanks for the input @Equatorial! I actually got a response from the manufacturers saying much the same thing but I wasn't sure if they were just saying that as an extra motivation for me to buy one (the person I was emailing didn't know I already had one). Glad to have their suggestion backed up by someone from the real world though
I don't have a dimmer on the driver for the board with the reds on it. That board is total of 60watt & is comprised of 108 LM301m at 3000k + 4 LH351h deep red + 2 LH351h far red.
The main light has a dimmer & is 240 total watt comprised of 360 x lm301b @3000k and 120 x lm301b @6500k.
Will I be able to run the board with the additional reds full twat alongside the main rig?

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[bakEQuatorial]

Thanks for the input @Equatorial! I actually got a response from the manufacturers saying much the same thing but I wasn't sure if they were just saying that as an extra motivation for me to buy one (the person I was emailing didn't know I already had one). Glad to have their suggestion backed up by someone from the real world though
I don't have a dimmer on the driver for the board with the reds on it. That board is total of 60watt & is comprised of 108 LM301m at 3000k + 4 LH351h deep red + 2 LH351h far red.
The main light has a dimmer & is 240 total watt comprised of 360 x lm301b @3000k and 120 x lm301b @6500k.
Will I be able to run the board with the additional reds full twat alongside the main rig?

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

Just play with height if you can't dim. Closer if they are cool with it. Further if you see stress on leaves.

 

[Benjidubwise]

@ChroToker I was just sniffing around on the Invisible Sun website looking for some specs. I noticed that they recommend the Red strip is used with a heatsink if used at +50% power. I didn't factor for that at all when I bought the 60w, non dimmable driver that IS recommended. The rep didn't mention anything about it at the time & they don't sell the corresponding heatsinks on their web site.
What is your set up? how do you have everything wired & are you running multiple drivers?

 

[Mr Green Fingers]

@ChroToker I was just sniffing around on the Invisible Sun website looking for some specs. I noticed that they recommend the Red strip is used with a heatsink if used at +50% power. I didn't factor for that at all when I bought the 60w, non dimmable driver that IS recommended. The rep didn't mention anything about it at the time & they don't sell the corresponding heatsinks on their web site.
What is your set up? how do you have everything wired & are you running multiple drivers?

I bought mine as a kit but from DIYLEDUK as just wanted the red diodes by themselves, this is how mine is setup, maybe this heatsink they sell you can use for your strip? My strip is just stuck on with some sort of double sided tape to the heatsink but I'm sure you could drill and screw it in instead.
https://diyleduk.com/products/610mm-heatsink-for-led-strips

 

[Benjidubwise]

@ChroToker Thanks for the info, man! Sorry for the lazy reply, been away for a few days. Will check that site out & get something ordered. Still haven't heard back from Invisible Sun.. Seems their after sales customer care is a bit hit & miss.

 

[Smoking Frog]

Well,this guy know his shit when it comes to far red and LED lighting! If you really want to learn something about far reds...

 

[caliEskimo]

Dr. Bruce knows his stuff man! Wish I could be an apprentice under his leadership because every seminar he's presented, I've sat down, listened to and studied what he's said..chimes true every time if you know what you're doing!
Anyways, I'm glad this is the topic of my very first post here! I've been kinda fascinated with light physics my whole life basically and how biology interacts with it, especially cannabis! Another thing that has fascinated me in the past 10 years is the evolution of lighting technology and then this wave of Ruderalis cultivation! What a trip! Seriously, I remember back when, reading High Times and the like and ordering Lowryder...man, I was blown away with how it did everything by itself and the taste....way better than most of the stuff you could get your hands on back then!! Things have come a long way but in no way have I been antiquated, no sir! One other thing I'd like to point out is that this site is a breath of fresh air compared to Rollitup. I've been a member there since basically it's conception in the early 2000s.
But yeah, I've got a jack herer auto from ilgm under a Lenofocus lf100 and a Chinese PCB 122 led R, B, IR, UV and 5000k white(cheap but Tobacco and Rhubarb grow massive under this 45watt led!) light. I also have a 80watt T12 cool white hanging vertically to give side lighting. We've made it to now week 9 but it hasn't come easy I guess you could say. I've made several mistakes along the way but the hardiness of this strain is incredible! From the day it was placed in rockwool there were inevitable issues, no viable fertilizers for the first 2 weeks in bubbleponics DWC, high PH ~8.1 Ro water was used and h2o temps were consistently in low 80s. Air temps as this drought and heat wave looms, room temps sometimes sometimes spiked to 88-91° with varying humidity levels. I could keep going with issues that popped up but as of today my girl has bounced back and to a normally photoperiod-sensitive kind of guy, this auto appears to maybe have 2 weeks left. Question; is it too late to add an initiation puck I'd build using 3x 8watt 720nm far red LEDs with a 35 watt meanwell driver? I get that these types of plants don't grow like photos do but then if there's already an instruction map in place for Autos, far red would then be counter productive and is merely wasting electricity. I'm trying to bulk the flowers already formed and am blasting her with GH liquid and dry Koolbloom, CalMag w/fulvic iron and sulfur, Golden tree, Sweet Raw, Hydroguard and hopefully in the next day or two, Floralicious plus and floraBlend Vegan for a last minute "sweetener" before an unbuffered RO/Distilled flush last couple days. Ph stays around 6.2, temps high 70s and roots are still white despite dyes, no rot ever, no slime and my 5 gal bucket is full, of roots!
Anyways, sorry for length..I come from Rollitup where, well, you might know where I'm going but back to my question; is it really worth attempting the Emerson Effect and add more far red light on my auto at this stage?
Thanks for the add everyone! Glad to be here!