Why do people care about getting good ph for water used in final flushing?

[Son of Hobbes]

I still dont see the logic behind that. I mean higher PH water removes the nutrients from the soil just as good as perfect PH water. And even tho you flush to remove the nutrients from the medium, you flush them from the medium in order for the plants not to get them. So in the end its about not wanting your plants to suck up nutrients, not about the grow medium. I mean you could have tons of nutes in the soil, but if the plants wont take them, its same as not having those nutes flushed away. Is it not?

Why would it be a bad thing to get nutrient lock outs for nitrogen for example? Nitrogen can be used from the plant itself and moved around inside the plant to be used where it is needed. So locking out nitrogen does not suddenly stop the nitrogen used by the plant, as it has nitrogen stored in leaves etc.

Also if you reduce nutrient intake tons due to using higher PH water, naturally flush would not have to take 2 weeks.

This higher PH would also reduce the intake of phosphorus, which helps with intake of other nutrients, helps to grow roots etc. which i doubt is needed much during the last week or so.

Potassium you would still get absorbed by the plant, along with magnesium. Is it not the potassium and magnesium that are still important in late flowering?

For starters, this is under the assumption that flushing is doing ANYTHING to the quality of your harvested flower, and it makes (quite arguably) no discernable impact.

Also if you reduce nutrient intake tons due to using higher PH water, naturally flush would not have to take 2 weeks.

Or skip this entirely, and just reduce your feed inputs. I mean that would be far easier to say "hey let's taper off nutrients towards the end," which isn't entirely uncommon, then it is to speculate on what running random pH'd water through the medium will do during the last week or two.

 

[MIAutomatic]

Reducing your nutrient inputs towards the end of the plants life cycle is a good practice, but you can’t wash the nutrients salts out of the plant. Flushing is an old growing myth along the lines of water will burn your leaves with lights on or rocks in the bottom of pots help with drainage. This is one area that has been well tested and most experienced growers agree. There is a wealth of information available to you on this subject and smart people have already given you good advice, now you just have to take it. I will say no more on the subject, you do you.

Good luck!

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

For starters, this is under the assumption that flushing is doing ANYTHING to the quality of your harvested flower, and it makes (quite arguably) no discernable impact.



Or skip this entirely, and just reduce your feed inputs. I mean that would be far easier to say "hey let's taper off nutrients towards the end," which isn't entirely uncommon, then it is to speculate on what running random pH'd water through the medium will do during the last week or two.

So you argue that even if you grow with synthetic nutes in hydro, using heavy doses all over the grow edging on toxicity, it makes no difference for the end product if you flush the plants or not? Or do you just claim that its impossible to flush any of the nutes off a soil? Or are you only talking about organic grows? Because believe me, there is a difference with synthetic nutes and organics. I dont see any sense of flushing with organics, but i do with synthetics, especially if you did not lower the nutes tons much before harvest. But if you do dilute your nutrient water with water, then you are doing what flushing essentially is, but just not as suddenly or strong.

 

[MIAutomatic]

Using heavy doses edging on toxicity? Why would you do that? That sounds stressful for the plants. Feed a balanced schedule all the way through, this push the plant mentality just leads to large yields of mediocre flowers at best and sad nutrient burned plants at worst.

 

[Son of Hobbes]

So you argue that even if you grow with synthetic nutes in hydro, using heavy doses all over the grow edging on toxicity, it makes no difference for the end product if you flush the plants or not? Or do you just claim that its impossible to flush any of the nutes off a soil? Or are you only talking about organic grows? Because believe me, there is a difference with synthetic nutes and organics. I dont see any sense of flushing with organics, but i do with synthetics, especially if you did not lower the nutes tons much before harvest. But if you do dilute your nutrient water with water, then you are doing what flushing essentially is, but just not as suddenly or strong.

I grow with nothing but synthetic nutrients and I don't flush.

I've taken over 20,000+ plants to full term commercially with synthetic nutrients and have both flushed and not flushed; not only did we see absolutely no difference in the quality of flower on the non-flushed plants (meant 100% to sell to people at a store,) we actually saw NOTICEABLE weight gains by feeding all the way up to chop versus cutting nutrients the last week or two, with historical data from the grow to compare to running the same cultivars at the same time of year.

So you argue that even if you grow with synthetic nutes in hydro, using heavy doses all over the grow edging on toxicity

This is 100% on the shoulders of the grower. You don't HAVE to heavy feed.

"Because believe me, there is a difference with synthetic nutes and organics. "

Not to plants. Plants don't know the difference between organic and inorganic inputs.

But if you do dilute your nutrient water with water, then you are doing what flushing essentially is, but just not as suddenly or strong.

No, they are not the same actually. Feeding with a diluted solution is still feeding. Moving water through the pot to remove excess soluble nutrients is not the same as feeding.

Even Ed Rosenthal suggests if you're going to flush, do it within correct pH range:

To rinse, use tepid water (about 75° F/ 24° C) that is adjusted to a pH of about 5.8-6.0, which is the range at which the nutrients are all soluble.

 

[Talonxracer]

If the water the plant is up-taking is not ph'd, wouldn't that affect how the plant can move or utilize nutrients within the plant itself?

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

I grow with nothing but synthetic nutrients and I don't flush.

I've taken over 20,000+ plants to full term commercially with synthetic nutrients and have both flushed and not flushed; not only did we see absolutely no difference in the quality of flower on the non-flushed plants (meant 100% to sell to people at a store,) we actually saw NOTICEABLE weight gains by feeding all the way up to chop versus cutting nutrients the last week or two, with historical data from the grow to compare to running the same cultivars at the same time of year.



This is 100% on the shoulders of the grower. You don't HAVE to heavy feed.



Not to plants. Plants don't know the difference between organic and inorganic inputs.



No, they are not the same actually. Feeding with a diluted solution is still feeding. Moving water through the pot to remove excess soluble nutrients is not the same as feeding.

Even Ed Rosenthal suggests if you're going to flush, do it within correct pH range:

So are you saying that flushing is not needed if you grow in a certain way, like keep nutrient intake in check etc. But has benefits if people dont grow optimally? How big of part of growers you think uses optimal amounts of nutrients and knows how when to reduce them etc? Or would you say that most growers use the amounts of nutrients put on the package? If so, are you saying that those amounts are the perfect amounts or just that it does not matter if you give too much nutes?

Do you not agree that especially new growers have the tendency to overfeed the plants? I know i dont have to heavy feed the plants, but i would argue that most people do feed at least a bit too much.

Again this topic is about how to flush if you do flush, not about whether your optimal growing methods require flushing or not.

And yes i would argue that diluting the nutes over time and dropping them all together all of a sudden does the same thing; make it so that there is less nutes stored in the plant itself when you chop it down. I mean you are giving the plant less nutes than it needs, in order to make the excess go away from the plant tissue. No?

Naturally its different if you want to flush during the grow for example to get rid of nutrient locks. Then it would be good to PH the water and you would do it differently than end flush. With end flush you dont water in excess, but you just stop using nutes. If you stop using half or 2/3rd of nutes, is that not the same thing, but just 50 or 33%?

Getting stuck on flushing or what ever terminology makes no sense. We are really talking about removing excess nutrients from the plant matter when talking about end flush. No? It is logical that using higher PH would remove these nutrients from the plant faster, as they are not being absorbed properly from the grow medium anymore, besides not being fed any more. There is a reason why people flush for shorter time in hydro, hydro does not have a grow medium that stores the nutes same way, so it pretty much instantly starts using what it has in the plant tissue when switching to water only diet. So if the point is to not get more nutes inside the plant too much, so that the plant uses more of what it has in its tissue, then would not higher PH water in soil also do it more effectively? Like something between hydro and regular PH soil? I mean that would make sense to me.

Yes my point was that respected people say that you need to use correct PH, but looking into the reason, i dont see any valid reasons for it. This is the answer i am looking for, if there is a good reason or not. If it is so that the whole plant PH changes with the water and it cannot use what it has stored in its tissues, then that would make sense to PH the water. But to my knowledge this is just about how the roots can absorb nutes, not how it can use what in it already. Or am i wrong about that?

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

Using heavy doses edging on toxicity? Why would you do that? That sounds stressful for the plants. Feed a balanced schedule all the way through, this push the plant mentality just leads to large yields of mediocre flowers at best and sad nutrient burned plants at worst.

Why are you asking me why other people do stupid shit? People do stupid shit and thats a fact. Why they do this particular stupid shit, is at least partly because nutrient companies often put out too heavy doses on their bottles to sell more nutes and most people dont know better and are just following instructions. Also some people think that more is better with everything.

 

[CannaDaTaBiz]

If the water the plant is up-taking is not ph'd, wouldn't that affect how the plant can move or utilize nutrients within the plant itself?

Not to my knowledge, but if someone has proofs that it does. Id like to hear, because that is the only valid reason i can see why it would make sense to PH the water optimally for final flushing.

 

[Death The Cultivator]

So are you saying that flushing is not needed if you grow in a certain way, like keep nutrient intake in check etc. But has benefits if people dont grow optimally? How big of part of growers you think uses optimal amounts of nutrients and knows how when to reduce them etc? Or would you say that most growers use the amounts of nutrients put on the package? If so, are you saying that those amounts are the perfect amounts or just that it does not matter if you give too much nutes?

Do you not agree that especially new growers have the tendency to overfeed the plants? I know i dont have to heavy feed the plants, but i would argue that most people do feed at least a bit too much.

Again this topic is about how to flush if you do flush, not about whether your optimal growing methods require flushing or not.

And yes i would argue that diluting the nutes over time and dropping them all together all of a sudden does the same thing; make it so that there is less nutes stored in the plant itself when you chop it down. I mean you are giving the plant less nutes than it needs, in order to make the excess go away from the plant tissue. No?

Naturally its different if you want to flush during the grow for example to get rid of nutrient locks. Then it would be good to PH the water and you would do it differently than end flush. With end flush you dont water in excess, but you just stop using nutes. If you stop using half or 2/3rd of nutes, is that not the same thing, but just 50 or 33%?

Getting stuck on flushing or what ever terminology makes no sense. We are really talking about removing excess nutrients from the plant matter when talking about end flush. No? It is logical that using higher PH would remove these nutrients from the plant faster, as they are not being absorbed properly from the grow medium anymore, besides not being fed any more. There is a reason why people flush for shorter time in hydro, hydro does not have a grow medium that stores the nutes same way, so it pretty much instantly starts using what it has in the plant tissue when switching to water only diet. So if the point is to not get more nutes inside the plant too much, so that the plant uses more of what it has in its tissue, then would not higher PH water in soil also do it more effectively? Like something between hydro and regular PH soil? I mean that would make sense to me.

Yes my point was that respected people say that you need to use correct PH, but looking into the reason, i dont see any valid reasons for it. This is the answer i am looking for, if there is a good reason or not. If it is so that the whole plant PH changes with the water and it cannot use what it has stored in its tissues, then that would make sense to PH the water. But to my knowledge this is just about how the roots can absorb nutes, not how it can use what in it already. Or am i wrong about that?

So are you saying that flushing is not needed if you grow in a certain way, like keep nutrient intake in check etc. But has benefits if people dont grow optimally? How big of part of growers you think uses optimal amounts of nutrients and knows how when to reduce them etc? Or would you say that most growers use the amounts of nutrients put on the package? If so, are you saying that those amounts are the perfect amounts or just that it does not matter if you give too much nutes?

Not needed in general. If you aren't growing optimally then it is about the only time you would to get the pH/ec correct. Doesn't have any benefits unless you're fixing a mistake. We aren't statistically inclined to answer how many growers do this or that.

The "perfect" amount of nutrients is subjective, what one plant may tolerate another pheno may not but that's what observation is for. No one's going to arrest you for using a different dosage than what the manufacturer recommends.

Do you not agree that especially new growers have the tendency to overfeed the plants? I know i dont have to heavy feed the plants, but i would argue that most people do feed at least a bit too much.

How do you know it's overfeeding and not an environmental or pH related issue?

Again, we aren't statistically inclined to answer.

Again this topic is about how to flush if you do flush, not about whether your optimal growing methods require flushing or not.

You use the correct pH and the correct level of nutrients with a large volume of solution. Or you buy a Bluelab moisture content sensor to take the guesswork out and catch issues before they become problems.

And yes i would argue that diluting the nutes over time and dropping them all together all of a sudden does the same thing; make it so that there is less nutes stored in the plant itself when you chop it down. I mean you are giving the plant less nutes than it needs, in order to make the excess go away from the plant tissue. No?

Why are you doing so much arguing?

No. No. No.

You can't get rid of the "excess" stored in the plant tissue. Why do you think it stores to begin with?

Naturally its different if you want to flush during the grow for example to get rid of nutrient locks. Then it would be good to PH the water and you would do it differently than end flush. With end flush you dont water in excess, but you just stop using nutes. If you stop using half or 2/3rd of nutes, is that not the same thing, but just 50 or 33%?

What judgement comes into to play to believe that you need to flush towards the end? Sounds to me like you intend to starve the plants for no reason until they die. For what? Idk.

Flush when you're having problems.

Getting stuck on flushing or what ever terminology makes no sense. We are really talking about removing excess nutrients from the plant matter when talking about end flush. No? It is logical that using higher PH would remove these nutrients from the plant faster, as they are not being absorbed properly from the grow medium anymore, besides not being fed any more. There is a reason why people flush for shorter time in hydro, hydro does not have a grow medium that stores the nutes same way, so it pretty much instantly starts using what it has in the plant tissue when switching to water only diet. So if the point is to not get more nutes inside the plant too much, so that the plant uses more of what it has in its tissue, then would not higher PH water in soil also do it more effectively? Like something between hydro and regular PH soil? I mean that would make sense to me.

I have some plant biology plants you may be interested in.