THC / CBD Cross Breed

Joined
Nov 21, 2019
Messages
23
Reputation
0
Reaction score
21
Points
0
As a little background I have been growing autoflowers outdoors for about 2 years now and although I would prefer to buy my seeds I have been making my own seeds from fairly early in the piece. That choice has served me well as some suppliers are now less than keen to mail seeds down under. Anyway........

I have just harvested a CBD plant and found seeds in it. Since the pollen donor was a nearby THC plant any guesses what the seeds will be? BTW I told the girls not to go out partying when there is a male around but do they listen to me???

Science tells me I need to grow a bunch of seeds and test each one and then grow seeds from some of those etc etc but that seems like way too much work that I am never going to do, and there are not many seeds and most will / are fairly immature, so really just after an opinion.
 
As a little background I have been growing autoflowers outdoors for about 2 years now and although I would prefer to buy my seeds I have been making my own seeds from fairly early in the piece. That choice has served me well as some suppliers are now less than keen to mail seeds down under. Anyway........

I have just harvested a CBD plant and found seeds in it. Since the pollen donor was a nearby THC plant any guesses what the seeds will be? BTW I told the girls not to go out partying when there is a male around but do they listen to me???

Science tells me I need to grow a bunch of seeds and test each one and then grow seeds from some of those etc etc but that seems like way too much work that I am never going to do, and there are not many seeds and most will / are fairly immature, so really just after an opinion.
If the male was an auto, the cross will likely be as well. As to THC/CBD ratio, I do not know enough about the underlying genetics, so I can't advise. If I were you, I would fire all the seeds in some outdoor soil next season and see what they do. To test, get out the vape or rolling paper. Bottom line to me is that if growing them out does not screw up other growing, why not see what you have. OTOH, I would not waste an indoor grow on questionable seeds. Too many great alternatives with a better chance of getting what you are after in the harvest.

Just my noob 2 centavos though. :biggrin: :goodluck:
 
Not sure what the words below actually mean, but it may help:

6.2.3 Cannabinoid Genetics
de Meijer et al. (2003) proposed that chemotype is determined by two alleles at a
single gene locus, termed the B locus. The BT allele encodes THCA-S, and the BD
allele encodes CBDA-S. Plants prevalent in THC and with little or no CBD have
BT/BT genotypes. Plants prevalent in CBD and with little or no THC have BD/BD
genotypes. Plants that produce nearly equal amounts of THC and CBD have BT/BD
genotypes (de Meijer 2014). Thus BT and BD alleles do not express the classical
Mendelian genetic behavior of binary traits, where one allele is dominant and one is
recessive. In de Meijer’s model, the alleles for THCA-S and CBDA-S are
codominant, because both alleles are expressed. In other words, neither phenotype
is recessive—heterozygous individuals express both phenotypes.

Previous breeding experiments by Yotoriyama et al. (1980) suggested codominant
inheritance. They crossed THCA-dominant males with CBDA-dominant
females, and the F2 population consisted prevalent-THC plants (n = 40), mixed
THC-CBD plants (n = 101), and prevalent-CBD plants (n = 58), a distribution
consistent with segregation into codominant BT/BT, BT/BD, and BD/BD genotypes.

de Meijer’s monogenic inheritance model requires further validation. There are
discrepancies: THC/CBD ratios in Cannabis show continuous variation, and by no
means segregate into 100% THC, 50:50, or 100% CBD populations. Kojoma et al.
(2006) cloned THCA-S sequences from “fiber-type” plants that produced no
detectable THCA—ostensibly BD/BD genotypes. Several THCA-S sequences were
polymorphic, expressing a total of 37 amino acid substitutions. Kojoma proposed
that these polymorphism decreased THCA-S activity in fiber-type plants. Thichak
et al. (2011) also showed that THC can be synthesized by BD/BD plants. They
probed 100 Thai plants with PCR primers designed to amplify THCA-S. The allele
was absent in 37 plants (BD/BD), yet five of them produced THC (mean 0.4%, range
0.28–0.60%).

Other models are out there. Japanese researchers reported classical Mendelian
genetic behavior, rather than codominant segregation. Nishioka (in Isbell 1973)
crossed a CBDA-producing strain with a THCA-producing strain, and “demonstrated
that the CBDA producing strain was genetically recessive.” Takashima
(1982) crossed CBDA-dominant plants with THCA-dominant plants and suggested
the latter trait is genetically dominant. Beutler and der Marderosian (1978) crossed
a CBDA-dominant male plant with a THCA-dominant female plant, and the F1s
segregated into 2/3 high CBDA and 1/3 high THCA plants.

Cascini et al. (2013) challenged the monogenic inheritance model. They carried
out bacterial cloning and real-time quantitative PCR of THCA-S in 12 Cannabis
samples of unknown provenance. They reported a variable copy number for
THCA-S in each sample, between one and four.

Weiblen et al. (2015) used the same methods to probe for THCA-S and
CBDA-A genes. Drug-type “Skunk#1” yielded three polymorphic copies of
THCA-S, and two copies of CBDA-S. The latter contained stop codons and frame
shift mutations, thus were nonfunctional. Fiber-type ‘Carmen’ yielded one copy of
CBDA-S and three copies of THCA-S copies; the latter were polymorphic and
probably nonfunctional. Based on this and other evidence (Marks et al. 2009),
Weiblen proposed that THCA- and CBDA-synthase are encoded by separate but
linked regions.

Onofri et al. (2015) used the same methods to probe for THCA-S and CBDA-A
in 18 strains of drug-type and fiber-type plants. They found many polymorphisms.
Some strains expressed more than two transcribed sequences; the inbred hybrid
“Haze” had five. They also measured THC and CBD content, and used this data to
identify polymorphisms that expressed fully-functional enzymes, versus polymorphisms
that expressed enzymes with less (or no) catalytic ability. Within the 18
strains, THCA-S averaged 2.9 SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) per
sequence, and CBDA-S averaged 5.7 SNPs per sequence.

Sequencing the Cannabis genome has presented more challenges to the
monogenic inheritance model. Van Bakel et al. (2011) revealed the presence of
more than one transcribed gene for THCA-S and for CBDA-S, as well as pseudogenes
related to THCA-S and CBDA-S. McKernan et al. (2016) used Illumina
(Next-Gen) genomic sequencing coupled with two different primer sets to generate
amplicons for THCA-S in thirteen medicinal strains, including four high-CBD
strains. Only one strain had a single THCA-S copy, the rest had multiple polymorphic
copies. “Chemdog” expressed five THCA-S copies—one with a stop
codon, one likely inactive, and three putatively active copies. Among the
prevalent-CBD strains, “Sour Tsunami” expressed six THCA-S copies—three with
frameshift mutations (stop codons), one inactive, one unknown, and one putatively
active (“Sour Tsunami” does produce some THC).
From:
Cannabis sativa L. - Botany and Biotechnology 1st ed. 2017 Edition
by Suman Chandra (Editor), Hemant Lata (Editor), Mahmoud A. ElSohly (Editor)
 

@KDawg you are a legend!

My readers digest version of this is that the half of plants will be 50% THC and 50% CBD and the rest will be either pure THC or pure CBD, so for me regardless of the resultant plant I am ok with the product.

Might follow @Olderfart suggestion and plant some out and see what happens!
 
I think I can help about what the article means, thanks for posting it.

The simplest assumption here is that THC/CBD ratio is dependent on a single gene with two different forms, one which codes for THC, the other for CBD, and neither of which is dominant over the other. Some data is consistent with this idea, and some researchers have argued that this single gene model applies at least to an important degree. However, the problem is that if this model was accurate, we would have strains with only one of three ratios: 50/50 THC/CBD, 100%THC, or 100% CBD. What we see though is continuous variation in ratios among strains, which can't result from a simple single gene control of the ratio. It is clear that while a single gene may be important, its influence is moderated by other genetic mechanisms. As usual, the simple idea suffers in the face of reality.

I think that the bottom line is that we don't entirely know how cannabis does it, but it does, and breeders can exploit this whether or not we know how it works.

Just my two cents worth based on my limited reading of this stuff, I am sure that there is a pile of stuff out there that I have not seen. :biggrin: :pighug:
 
If everything you were growing was good it might be good if you don't like CBD then don't grow but you might find some nice plants that you can't buy seeds for. You could always make more from those seeds if you like them. If you don't like the plant the seeds came from I wouldn't grow them and like @Olderfart was saying if you can only do so many plants and you have enough of seeds that you know are great you might want to not plant any. But if you liked the plant it came from maybe plant one. I've planted bag seed I liked. Never know what you'll find
 
I do a lot of pollen chucking and I like to throw CBD into the mix. I never get my stuff tested to be sure but it usually feels like a healthy mix of thc/cbd of the 2 parent plants.

My favorite pollen chuck is Dina Kush (15% cbd) X Dinafem OG kush CBD ( 10% cbd 10% THC ) and further crossed with Dinafems Bubba Kush.

If I was to guess I would say the offspring usually feel about a 8-15% THC and a 10% CBD.

bud.jpg
 
I think I can help about what the article means, thanks for posting it.

The simplest assumption here is that THC/CBD ratio is dependent on a single gene with two different forms, one which codes for THC, the other for CBD, and neither of which is dominant over the other. Some data is consistent with this idea, and some researchers have argued that this single gene model applies at least to an important degree. However, the problem is that if this model was accurate, we would have strains with only one of three ratios: 50/50 THC/CBD, 100%THC, or 100% CBD. What we see though is continuous variation in ratios among strains, which can't result from a simple single gene control of the ratio. It is clear that while a single gene may be important, its influence is moderated by other genetic mechanisms. As usual, the simple idea suffers in the face of reality.

I think that the bottom line is that we don't entirely know how cannabis does it, but it does, and breeders can exploit this whether or not we know how it works.

Just my two cents worth based on my limited reading of this stuff, I am sure that there is a pile of stuff out there that I have not seen. :biggrin: :pighug:

I can add some more to this since I looked into it a while ago, there are some more specifics known already and described in scientific literature.

de Meijer indeed proposed that model with the Bt and Bd allele of a single gene.
this was supported by crossing experiments, this showed the expected ratios:
thc x cbd= all 50/50 ratio f1, and in the f2 25% thc, 50% 50/50 and 25% cbd.

newer research went more into the actual sequence to find the thc and cbd genes. it was found they are not actually two alleles of the same gene, but two different genes (different locations). this would make it theoretically possible to get a 50/50 ratio plant that stably inherits that chemotype (no re-appearance of full cbd and full thc plants). however, these 2 genes are very tightly linked. physically they are somewhat close but there is some distance, but they are in a region with minimal recombination.
so practically, that model from de Meijer does mostly apply.

now the point you bring up about continious variation is where it gets really interesting. if you look at the thc/cbd ratio, not absolute amount, you can clearly distinguish those 3 classses (full thc, full cbd, 50/50). but, there is indeed quiet some spread within those categories, even if they do form 3 clear groups.
which is quiet relevant for legal cbd production, since a full cbd plant will still make some thc. so if you increase the total cannabinoid content/resin production, the ratio thc/cbd will be the same, but the legal limit is an absolute number. so let's say you start with a 8% cbd, 0.2% thc strain. <0.3%, legal to grow in america. you breed for increased resin and manage to get it up to 16% cbd. but now your thc% has doubled too to an illegal 0.4%, since the ratio stays the same when the absolute cannabinoid content increases.

so where does it come from?
first some explanation of how thc and cbd get made.
like a typical biosynthesis pathway, there are all kinds of intermediaries, and enzymes at different steps to do stuff and get to the next step.
one of the last steps is the production of cbg (well, actually cbga, just like fresh plants contain thca instead of thc, but I'll just leave that out).
cbg is then the substrate from which cbd, thc and cbc get made. (and maybe more minor cannabinoids).

so going back to those 2 alleles or 2 genes, that would then be different enzymes, one which can make thc from cbg, the other can make cbd from cbg. but apparently no thc-enzyme is needed to produce low levels of thc. this could have multiple explanations:
-there could be multiple copies/pseudogenes of the thc gene, some of which might be totally broken, but some might just have their expression turned really low (or the enzyme is really inefficient but still can do something), resulting in a low production from those copies even while the main thc gene is not present. (or, the main thc gene could still be there bt in a deactivated form, which could similarly be not fully decactivated. but I think, if I remember right, that it was found that hemp plants don't contain a thc-gene at all, while drug-type plants do contain a broken cbd-gene)

-it's in the main enzymes themselves. this option I think is especially interesting, since there is some evidence for it. the cannabinoid synthases are said to be 'leaky', i.e. the cbd synthase makes not just cbd, but also minor amounts of other cannabinoids, including thc. the cbc-enzyme gene was actually first described as an inactive thc gene (so, that would be such a copy from above), and later it was found it did actually do something, but it made mostly cbc instead of thc. people also found that if they put those cannabinoid enzymes into yeast, they could produce different cannabinoids depending on environment (don't exactly remember which factors they changed, I think growing the yeast at a different pH or temperature).
 
Back
Top