My theory on the Canna root system in organically grown EarthBoxes.

[hecno]

Building path ways . Cool .

 

[nizmoKush]

I love my earthbox is all I gotta say haha but to show some pictures of feeder rootson top soul. Don't mind the avocado germinating . That was a while back now the whole top of the EB is full of feeder roots on top since top dressing some BAS craft blend and buildaflower.

 

[WildBill]

Feeder roots will be created where there are the most available resources. If you top dress they will get very thick near that layer.. Mine usually have a thick layer of feeder roots in the top 2 inches of soil that I can barely poke a bamboo stick through as well and Im in @7 cloth pots. I keep my soil evenly saturated so I never get super thick roots anywhere aside from the layer of very fine feeder roots near the top dress.. Underground water sources also exist in nature in areas that have fresh water springs or that are near a creek or something that causes a shallow water table.. Some friends of mine would grow monsters near underground springs and always kept that spot secret... bastards. I think SIPS are just recreating this phenomenon. Nice write up!

Thanks Tom!
As a kid, I found a place with some wild canna growing in a river bottom. Rich soil brought in from occasional floods. Knowing the owner, I'm pretty sure floods was the way the canna got started. Like the Pecan trees there, these plants were huge. They were tapped into the water table from the river.
Yep, sip are pretty much doing the same as those kinds of locations. I think that's the power of SIPs. Unlike a conventional pot, SIPs are not forced to uptake nutes driven by the VPD. I think most people just don't realize that, since it's not true with other methods of growing. That's pretty much a given. My theory of SIPs growing canna in my fashion only taking what nutes the plant needs, is just a theory. I wish Dr. Bruce Bugbee would do a study with SIPs! That would be some interesting results!

 

[WildBill]

I love my earthbox is all I gotta say haha but to show some pictures of feeder rootson top soul. Don't mind the avocado germinating . That was a while back now the whole top of the EB is full of feeder roots on top since top dressing some BAS craft blend and buildaflower.View attachment 1372095

I saw the same in my first EB run. And that was the run used EB's recommendation on Dolomite and fought it all the way to chop. I nursed those girls with so many little organic tricks that were mainly trying to improve root health. With the same problem presented today, I do think I could have much better results today, using my current methods. I did get a stinky rez. Part of that was from no dry period for the rez, but with the methods I used to help dealing with the dolomite contributed to the stink. Just a dry period would have vastly helped, but humic acid in the water to help moderate the pH and the activated EM1 would have cleaned up the rez would have helped further. While I woudn't want to do that again, I'd like to know if my current methods would show better results.
I hope I'm not jinxing myself, but I'm pretty hopeful of a "MrOldBoy" Sam's Crack level of girl. I've got decent results from the Asian Haze outdoors under far less than optimal light. Elephant is destined for the EB and she's reported to have the potential of being a big girl. If something happens to getting the seeds in that test, I'll do Hubbabubbasmelloscope in the EB again.


Thanks for the pic in this discussion!

 

[simoiget]

Great thread @WildBill!

I have posted these photos before, this was one of my runs in SIPs going back to last fall.

I have been growing in SIPs for a couple years now and continue to learn and evolve my techniques

This run in the photos is the only time I have seen this level of surface roots. At the time I premixed the soil with dry amendments and then top dressed twice during the rest of the cycle, I only used a minimal amount of water to water in the top dress, and I did not top water other than right at the time of top dressing, there were my homemade hi-tec mulch covers which are just cut up contractor garbage bags.

I was not allowing a dry period for the res and kept in topped up always but always only plain water

I now am top dressing and top watering more frequently.I also allow the res to dry regularly. I now occasionally see the small feeder roots at the surface but nothing like the run in the photos below

 

[WildBill]

Great thread @WildBill!

I have posted these photos before, this was one of my runs in SIPs going back to last fall.

I have been growing in SIPs for a couple years now and continue to learn and evolve my techniques

This run in the photos is the only time I have seen this level of surface roots. At the time I premixed the soil with dry amendments and then top dressed twice during the rest of the cycle, I only used a minimal amount of water to water in the top dress, and I did not top water other than right at the time of top dressing, there were my homemade hi-tec mulch covers which are just cut up contractor garbage bags.

I was not allowing a dry period for the res and kept in topped up always but always only plain water

I now am top dressing and top watering more frequently.I also allow the res to dry regularly. I now occasionally see the small feeder roots at the surface but nothing like the run in the photos below


View attachment 1375581View attachment 1375582

WOW!!!!!!!
If you're not seeing the same amount of roots now in the same sip and a similar size girl ,it's not from the depth of the media in the sip. A shallower media would be easier for the roots to reach the surface and just less media for the roots to occupy.
My mounded media is slighly less moist than early in the grow, but still enough moisture there for the roots to grow like that with no problem.
That could be from having no dry period. The reason I say that is I've seen it in my first grow and others. Mark, FermentedFruits EBs looked like that and he had no dry periods then. From what I remember, he also top dressed fairly often too and added liquids to the top. I think that flushed nutes into his rez. While that eventually bit him in the butt a couple times with the rez going sour and the pH went nuts, It just didn't let the plant get into splitting into two systems and that was because of the plant being forced to take up those nutes washed into the rez. And since the rez was always filled, naturally there would be more nutes in the water, but maybe not enough to matter that much.
MrOldBoy ran his EBs kinda the same, Mark followed him then. MOB did use EM1 in his rez to help keep it clean and pH balanced. I'm sure his girls took up nutes thru the rez as he had tip burn from time to time and it wasn't light related.

Jeremy's YT series got me started on using the dry period and thinking about the two different root systems. I really started to TRY and push my Asian Haze with flower nutes. I hit her pretty hard with the J nutes and Blue Gold Flower nutes. I was expecting some tip burn to begin to appear. If I had given m other Asian Haze the same amount of nutes, even with being a much bigger pot at 15 gal, I'm pretty sure I wuld have seen some tip burn. That would be because it's being forced by VPD to take up the nutes along with it's only source of water.

After this upcoming grow, I may run a test on this. I just need to figure out all the points I need to hit to differentiate the two in each grow. The only one I have in mind is the dry period. I still want to use KNF style nutes on both. To keep the KNF nutes out of the rez, I'd have to feed more often and in smaller amounts. But that's the rub, the no-dry-rez plant may still develop the two root system if I don't let nutes wash into the rez. That could be used to prove the uptake of nutes is controlled by the plant as needed when there's two systems and not forced by the VPD.
It might take 3 EarthBoxes to prove this.
1. One like my current grow with a dry period and no nutes washed into the rez
2. One like described above with a full rez and no nutes washed into the rez
3. One like described above with a full rez and nutes washed into the rez

All the amounts of added nutes would have to be the same over the same period of a set of days and the only difference would be the amount of water added to those nute during the grow. It would be a pain, but it could be done. They would have to be in the same tent and three regular EBs won't fit my tent. I'd have to do Jrs. I think Jr's are too easy to get nutes in the rez with the depth of the media being less. I don't know if I can pull off #2 grow without getting nutes in the rez.

Maybe I'll send Jeremy and email and get his input.

I think it's interesting enough to try and examine further. Thanks for your valuable input! Please keep it up if you see something!

 

[WildBill]

Well, Jeremy finally came out and said something close to what I've been saying. This time he does say that the plant isn't forced to take up nutes because of the clean water in the rez. One or two vids ago, he made the comment that the plants roots haven moved into the top dressings because it hasn't needed it.
That's not too far off from what I'm saying that the plant will take what nutes it needs at that point in it's cycle.

We're not too far off saying the same thing, but in reality, it could be a big gap or step.

Yeah, that means I do need to send that email.

 

[WildBill]

I really think I'm done with 'regular' pots for the majority of my growing, with testing being the only time I'll use them. The same goes for transplanting.

I'm gonna buy more EarthBox Jrs. With their wicking spots being in the center, not on the ends like in the Regular, and smaller amount of media, I can turn on the rez at two weeks from sprout and put it on cruise control. With the root development at the two week period, the roots are well enough established, the girl will jump to the two root system and take up all the water she wants without worrying forcing uptake nutes.

I can put 6 in a 4x4 and 3 in the 2x4 tent. They would be full tents at chop, but I think manageable, even with big girls.

Unless I'm intentionally going for big girls, the Regular EarthBoxes with get girls on the ends, where the wicking spots are located. I think two weeks may work also, but it may need another week before turning on the rez. I'll just have to play with the timing.

 

[GinFizzLuv]

I really think I'm done with 'regular' pots for the majority of my growing, with testing being the only time I'll use them. The same goes for transplanting.

I'm gonna buy more EarthBox Jrs. With their wicking spots being in the center, not on the ends like in the Regular, and smaller amount of media, I can turn on the rez at two weeks from sprout and put it on cruise control. With the root development at the two week period, the roots are well enough established, the girl will jump to the two root system and take up all the water she wants without worrying forcing uptake nutes.

I can put 6 in a 4x4 and 3 in the 2x4 tent. They would be full tents at chop, but I think manageable, even with big girls.

Unless I'm intentionally going for big girls, the Regular EarthBoxes with get girls on the ends, where the wicking spots are located. I think two weeks may work also, but it may need another week before turning on the rez. I'll just have to play with the timing.

Are you doing one plant per Earthbox Jr?

 

[WildBill]

Are you doing one plant per Earthbox Jr?

For sure!
If I wanted two in one pot, it would be a regular Earthbox and place them on the ends,........where the wicking occurs.
I just don't think it's needed. Just put big growing girls in a regular and small girls in Jrs.