Fast Buds Rhino Ryder - Slow Bloom???

[Olde School Player]

OSP! hey mate, sorry for the lagging,.. been "busy" myself lately, but the last of the girls is in finally,... pretty sure I missed another post of yours? .... always feel free to tag my head a second time, it's not unusual to have some get lost in the scrum here for me at times!

FB, getting a lot of mixed feedback there,... some get great plants, excellent plants even,.. some get swag, or misfiring POS like this one, even in the same strains... They were better early on, but I think they are humping the $$ bags hard now, and shit is coming out with less stringent quality control... I'm betting this is either one of those misfires, or just a bad luck pheno' that isn't going to auto, or not anytime soon (some do auto, but waaaay delayed) --fuck that? Any auto that takes more than 11 weeks a waste of time and $, might as well have run a photo,... In any case, this happens to the best breeders on occasion too! Best thing to do IMO is to give her another week maybe to see if she goes; if not then boot her ass into a 12/12 (or try 14/10) and force the issue; nutes alone do NOT do this, the bloom switch is 100% hormone + phytochrome controlled.....​

@Waira, thanks for checking in on the Dispensary thread / same topic, I've indexed back here where I've kept a bit more info. And I certainly understand the lag, it happens regularly with me too. And glad to hear you finished the girls. Now hurry up & wait while they cure. My Blue Cheese is improving weekly, not that I've smoked any yet.:smoking:

So to re-iterate, I'm already two weeks into a shortened light cycle. Two weeks ago, Oct14 I reduced light from 20/4 to 18/6. On Oct18 I started @fettled6 's slow-bloom treatment, so Oct18-20 were total darkness days; Oct21 to today, 10/27 were 12 hour days. As of today, I'm seeing the terminal growth on each branch begin to cluster like they should when transitioning to bloom. And I am beginning to see single-group pistils in most terminal buds, whereas before the preflower pistils were hidden down the branches at secondary nodes like typical preflowers. So I think she's finally blooming, but was it the decreased light interval like a trigger for photoperiods, or really just a slow bloom for the autoflower?
You said Phytochrome - controlled? That's day length, right? Which would only affect start of bloom in a pure photoperiod strain rather than autoflower?

The parts of this that have me banging my head against the wall is, can an unstable autoflower hybrid cause the extended bloom time, but STILL bloom without a shortened day?
I don't have any experience with Ruderalis strains, do some pure ditch weed strains go that long to bloom by time instead of day length?​

I can better understand that this particular hybrid cross produced a phenotype that was pure photoperiod, in essence totally "missed", or received a recessive autoflower gene, which would NOT bloom based upon day length regardless of how long I waited. But I can't understand how a misfire or bad luck pheno could extend the bloom time.
But maybe that's just because I don't want that answer to be true, or I could just be as crazy as a shithouse rat.

Just don't know, hope you do!

​

 

[Olde School Player]

So here we are again. It's Nov1 and my Rhino Ryder has been on a short-day light cycle for two full weeks (if we count the 18/6 turndown beginning on Oct14, bump that up to 18 days). And for the last few days she has shown what I would consider to be a full bloom growth pattern - the terminal buds at the end of every branch are showing a clustered leaf pattern and pistils are visible inside each one. No doubt she's blooming, but I'm still faced with the dilemma I saw coming and have voiced earlier in this thread - did she bloom because of the shortened light cycle (meaning she's exhibiting photoperiod tendencies); or did she bloom because this particular ruderalis hybrid strain needed that amount of time to bloom? Just because I've never seen one go that long doesn't mean that's not the right answer....

I don't think there's a way to definitively answer that question without some significant risks either way.

Options - I can restore the light regimen to 20 / 4, 18 / 6, or even 14 / 10 if I want to hedge my bets & play safe.
Or I can leave the light regimen at 12 / 12 (or 14 / 10, same as the chickenshit option to hedge my bet, above).

My biggest reservation to restoring to 20 / 4 or 18 / 6, is if this turns out to be a photoperiod, then that light cycle will cause the plant to re-veg. I had that happen once with a Matanuska Tundra (or Thunderfuck if you prefer the urban legend label). My central air went out and I had to move my grow out of the old utility room, into a bedroom that was not light tight. Bad judgment on my part, once the A/C was repaired, I didn't go to the trouble to move everything back where it belonged. The plant re-veg'ed, and instead of the nice rock hard tangerine-sized buds she was growing, they ballooned to fluffy buds the size of a gallon size nutrient jug. You might say, HOLEY MOLEY!!! I WANT BUDS THE SIZE OF GALLON JUGS (I know, I know, @fettled6 wants a stripper with gallon sized jugs - me too!!!). But the buds were trash. Fluffy trash. Wouldn't get a fly high. And I had spent half a bazillion dollars for those seeds. The buds went to the compost pile, where I also pissed on them. So I don't want to risk a re-veg.
But I also don't want to waste the 46 days I've invested in growing her, ESPECIALLY since she's turned into a monster beast with the most top buds I've ever seen on a single plant. Even way more than my last grow, Dinafem Blue Cheese, which was a Blue Ribbon winner.



So unless someone can bestow some pearls of wisdom & botanical ruderalis grow knowledge on us, I'm leaning really hard toward 14 / 10 as the only safe way out of this. She will guaranteed bloom at that light cycle; I'm just hoping with quality bud density. I'm guessing yield could be down as much as 30% with the reduced light cycle, but I think this could be a 12 oz. plant under a conventional 20 / 4 lighting. That's still an 8 oz. plant, which is my "smiling" line in the sand.
By the way, I also decided that two 55watt COB's would not be enough light for this beast - her canopy is a full 5 sq. ft. - so I hung my 325Watt Pro-II Cree-128 a few days ago. Light height at 18" and she's loving it. The COB's are hanging over my next project, FastBuds GorillaGlue Auto, transplanted yesterday & looking good.

Isn't there a way to set up a "Vote" feature on AFN? Would be interesting to see what everyone thinks I should do. Then when I fook up I have someone else to blame it on....


@Waira @bushmasterar15 @912GreenSkell @HemiSync @Mizzo81 @Nosias @Mossy @hairyman @Dudeski @archie gemmill
and any other valued contributors' opinions welcomed.

 

[G.Leave]

Isn't there a way to set up a "Vote" feature on AFN? Would be interesting to see what everyone thinks I should do. Then when I fook up I have someone else to blame it on....

Yes there is, but only a mod can do it at this point....if you let me know what parameters you want the vote to be based on I can set it up for you.

 

[hairyman]

I keep hearing the terms "semi - auto and fast finishing photo a what you ask as I understand its a male auto x photo f1

I have had a couple this year that have none auto or should i say in the case of one of them , it went auto but it took that long should it be called an auto,,and the other needed a nudge into flower with some dark periods

I prefer a auto that show sex early , perhaps they should be graded super fast , fast, slow auto , very slow auto , treat it like a photo plant auto or should we say fast photo ,,,

I only grow inside in a relatively small space and I like a fast finishing auto , the big autos that take longer are giving good results for the outdoorgrowers and big tent boys,,, swings and roundabouts

It's all a mystery

What do you think Archie

 

[bad dragon bzzz]

one of them choices none of us want to make its been a troublesome girl allready,think you got to play it safe 12/12,14/10 and just get it finished out the tent and onto something else.i wouldnt want to go and upset it further by changing light pattern to veg,to be back at square one if its a foto,will it finish any quicker at 18/6 if it is an auto ? dont think theres much in it.
semi,super,xxl advertizing babble or trying to cover up a fu :smoking: just an eejits opinion
good luck n keep er lit.

breeders should give seeds to Skelly then they can call them all super semis

 

[Simplicio]

I have 6 different strains right now that have taken 6.5 weeks to START flower, and they still have pre-flowers that are maturing.
Some of that might be due to the abuse they took from my changing nute brands.
I've had one plant take 10 weeks to start flower before.
The longer they take, usually the bigger they yield.

 

[Olde School Player]

Yes there is, but only a mod can do it at this point....if you let me know what parameters you want the vote to be based on I can set it up for you.

Thanks Skelly, appreciate the offer but I'm not going to put anyone through the trouble with that, don't know what I was thinking when I even considered that. Peeps can just reply here & that will keep it simple.

 

[Olde School Player]

I keep hearing the terms "semi - auto and fast finishing photo a what you ask as I understand its a male auto x photo f1

I have had a couple this year that have none auto or should i say in the case of one of them , it went auto but it took that long should it be called an auto,,and the other needed a nudge into flower with some dark periods

I prefer a auto that show sex early , perhaps they should be graded super fast , fast, slow auto , very slow auto , treat it like a photo plant auto or should we say fast photo ,,,

I only grow inside in a relatively small space and I like a fast finishing auto , the big autos that take longer are giving good results for the outdoorgrowers and big tent boys,,, swings and roundabouts

It's all a mystery

What do you think Archie

one of them choices none of us want to make its been a troublesome girl allready,think you got to play it safe 12/12,14/10 and just get it finished out the tent and onto something else.i wouldnt want to go and upset it further by changing light pattern to veg,to be back at square one if its a foto,will it finish any quicker at 18/6 if it is an auto ? dont think theres much in it.
semi,super,xxl advertizing babble or trying to cover up a fu :smoking: just an eejits opinion
good luck n keep er lit.

breeders should give seeds to Skelly then they can call them all super semis

I have 6 different strains right now that have taken 6.5 weeks to START flower, and they still have pre-flowers that are maturing.
Some of that might be due to the abuse they took from my changing nute brands.
I've had one plant take 10 weeks to start flower before.
The longer they take, usually the bigger they yield.

Man, is this becoming an epidemic. or have I just been unbelievably lucky - all (15) previous grows I've done have shown progressive bloom within 14 days after transplanting to LED lighting. To repeat, fastest was 12 days, longest 19. Now we're seeing 45 days consistently? Damn.... is the gene pool becoming too diluted for auto's? Doubt it, but it would be pleasant if some breeder types weigh. Is this just shitty efforts to produce product with no quality control? "The Industry" used to be really serious about the stability of any given strain. We welcomed different phenotypes but this is more fundamental than that. It should auto, or not, by some consistent rules.
I'm going to vote next Tuesday, think I'll write that in on the ballot.

 

[Mossy]

I debated whether toplace this in the Dispensary forum, but it's not really a sick plant. So hoping someone here can shed some light on an irritating issue for me. I'm having some slow-to-bloom challenges with my latest grow, Fast Buds’ Rhino Ryder Autoflower. Looking for similar experiences, or better still, solutions?
On average, my past (15) grows have shown progressive bloom within 14 days after transplanting to LED lighting. The fastest was 12 days, longest was 19. Today, this one is 38 days from seedling transplant. There are a FEW preflowers, single two-pistil groups that you REALLY have to look closely to find. I’m talking hand held magnifying glass closely. Basically she is still in a healthy vegetative growth state and putting on good branching infrastructure across the canopy. None of the terminal leaders are beginning to cluster like they should when its transitioning to bloom. Now, if she ever turns on the colas she will be a true Amazon Woman. This is a 27” X 27” square tent & she’s practically filled it side-to-side:

On Day 26 I switched nutrients to transition formula, hoping to encourage bloom. On Day 29 I decreased lighting from 20/4 to 18/6 while I started searching AFN for answers. Our revered and highly respected @fettled6 replied he had seen this in one of his past grows. His solution was to run through 48 hours of total darkness, followed by five days of 12/12, then 18 / 6. This solved his problem. So on Day 33 I started two days of darkness, and on Day 35 I began 12 / 12. Today is Day 38, no change. Still healthy, still showing steady vegetative growth, but no more preflowers than when I started worrying about lack of bloom.
I know 12 / 12 lighting can induce an axe handle to bloom if it’s transplanted properly and the right nutes are applied. I also know that every hour of light contributes to better yield, so I don’t want to default to 12 /12 unless that’s my last resort.

In thinking this through I find myself wondering, is there such a thing as a "slow" auto? I've seen that term referenced but I don't have firsthand experience with auto's not blooming.
And if they do exist, is it possible to trigger a "slow" auto by shortening daylight time? By its very genetics that's a photoperiod trait. Does it apply / will it work for an autoflower strain that is time-, not light-dependent?
And if there is such a thing as a "slow" auto, what is the minimum lights-off time that will encourage bloom?
And if bloom is triggered, will it remain stable if the lighting interval is increased?

I’ve been along for the ride with other growers who accidentally received a photoperiod seed when they thought it was an auto ( @Autotron , he’s been there / done that). But this is Fast Buds, and all they provide is autoflowering strains. Sure, they have to utilize photoperiods for their breeding efforts, but all professional breeders find a desirable phenotype from seed, then work from photoperiod clones of that pheno to develop and stabilize autoflower crosses? Anything’s possible, but highly doubtful they accidentally mixed a photoperiod seed in the batch of three autoflowers that I received. Not faulting the Breeder, and I seriously doubt I will find this to be the case. But I have to consider the possibility.
Is it possible that this is a not-quite-stable phenotype with not-quite-enough autoflower genes? Here’s where my Science goes fuzzy - I’m not sure the autoflower gene is something you can dilute. I would expect it to be present, or not. The only parallel I can think of is parental phenotyping, where seeds exhibit more of one parent’s traits than the other. A perfect rime example of that - in the early 2000’s an outdoor grower gave me a single seeded bud from a G-13 / Big Bud hybrid harvest. I claimed the seeds myself from the bud.
This little pheno would make the world hungry:

And this pheno would cure world hunger:

But I digress. Can phenotype differences extend itself to autoflowers? I think not in a stable strain, but I’m not a breeder. I do have two more seeds of this variety, and time will tell if subsequent grows present the same. But that does nothing for me now.
Do we have any esteemed Breeder members who would care to take a crack at explaining this without getting into the xy headaches? I would find that a most interesting and valuable topic if you would.
Any grower experiences with solutions that worked for you? One and counting, but hedging my bets as F6’s solution does not seem to be working for me. Sucks to be me? Most days, no… we’ll see.[/COLOR][/URL][/COLOR][/URL]

Right..this is My Experience Only. I am Not answering for any seed bank involved.

We have had big discussion on this in the staff room seeing the new flush of them appear on the market.

I believe there are 2 crosses that have emerged from the Original Autoflower cross.

Fully Autoflower..who does what the Original spec says.
Day neutral ..will flower on 24 hour light cycle.

There is Also what we refer to in the back shop ...Fast Flower.

Before I tell you about her...we need to mention Traditional Photo period crosses.
Need to be changed to a 12/12 light pattern to go into flower.

Right..Fast Flower.
I firmly believe this is the second cross that has come out of the Autoflower mix...an since I've played with the from the very start. I say the selection was there from the very original Auto crosses.

Now I'll tell you about the definitions that I have put on what I term as Fast Flower....and You let me know if your girls are hitting these definitions......let's see if we can divine the 2nd cross.

is neither fully auto or fully photo...

It is Usually a Late bloomer...if I see someone saying their girls took around 35 days to come into flower...I Think that is the first Clue.
She will be Bigger than your average Auto...an every one I have seen has been beautiful and robust..the very definition of hybrid vigor.

She will show pistillate on 20/4 or 24 hour light pattern.
(not photoperiod traits)

After she shows pistills she Stops...she doesn't go into bud production like an Auto..she goes back into veg...for 3-4 weeks.

No bud set..she just gets bigger and bigger..Then she goes into bud production
(second veg period after flower..definitely not Auto)

Most of them are Massive...like Autos on steriods....the Harvest time goes out the window.
I See a Lot of them going 150 days plus.

So you see...they follow Neither Auto or Photo prescribed patterns. I say it is the Second cross to come out of the Auto line.

Fast Flower..neither fish nor fowl...a direct cross coming out of the Auto Photo cross from the original Autoflower line.

If this is what you have...and want to Talk more..let me know..as I say..something we have had big discussions on...so I have a Theory.

 

[G.Leave]

Thanks Skelly, appreciate the offer but I'm not going to put anyone through the trouble with that, don't know what I was thinking when I even considered that. Peeps can just reply here & that will keep it simple.

Really its not a bother buddy...its a mere 5 minutes(if that) out of my day!!